On Documentaries

Arky said
During a panel discussion at Asian Women's film Festival a member of audience posed this question. "Do documentaries always made on hard-hitting issues?” This is good question in the year when a documentary film 'March of the Penguins' had made enough money on par with popular films.Before we begin lets check what the term means, it is defined 'as broad category of cinematic expression united by the intent to remain factual or non-fictional ' on wikipedia.What is your idea on what constitutes a documentary film and how a common person views documentary film-making in general.

Malavika says
Documentary in the real sense is real incidents or issues that are captured on tape through imagery, interviews and narration, without any enactment to support it. Most common people view documentary films as boring, and i don’t blame them most films do tend to be very slow and its very hard to sit through a one to one and a half hour documentary, this i do know. Plus if the context of the film is something new its very hard to grasp what they are trying to say.Common people want to see things that are entertaining, documentary is not entertainment.

Arky says
Well put, Malavika.With advent of cable channels we now get to see lot of documentaries on Science, biographies and wildlife. These are termed as documentaries too isn't it, but there are at the same time entertaining.Mike Birkhead [1], a wildlife film producers once gave a talk on his life's work in IIsc Bangalore (under a British Library event) summed his work as serious documentary (wildlife) film-making that carried a potent message, acetic-ally beautiful and entertaining.What do you reckon fellows ?[1] Mike Birkhead (http://www.mikebirkhead.com) was one film-makers who's films on Indian Tiger created a furor all over the world. He was banned from most Indian wild-life parks until recently.


Dipa says
Well about documentaries most people feel that they don’t come across well enough because there is no story to it, no drama etc.
But a good documentary manages to interweave so many stories and manages to cover different aspect of the issue in the little time allotted don’t think most movies do that. Because for all movies, at some point the character becomes more important than the point itself.
In a movie I feel that a character is used to put forth an idea, a cause or an issue ...and provoke thought. Whereas in a documentary the thought and the idea is central, characters evolve along the way .They are just aids.
This is all in my opinion and i might be very wrong.
What I thought is vital about a documentary is that it makes you question. While you can getaway with everything in a movie under the pretext of entertaining or building a story line or whatever....in a documentary you cannot do that. Even at that fest which i attended for one session......it made everybody question.
One gentleman questioned the very purpose of making these documentaries. Which I think is vital. It made several people react to him, but I think it is vital to bring that up. I am just shooting off the top off my head.
But documentaries are certainly very powerful by themselves. I wish they were more accessible



Arky says
An excellent point, documentaries do not have luxury of a fictional character being the mouth pieces. A note of caution is that documentary film-maker does have the ability to present the idea in any ways quite akin to fiction recreation of feature films. I remember Noam Chomsky talking about this danger with humor in his documentary film "Manufacturing Consent".In Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the media, Gary Bauslaugh, Dean of Studies, Malaspine college introduces Noam Chomsky as the "arguably the most important intellectual alive"Noam takes the podium and starts his lecture.“Perhaps I ought to begin by reporting something that's never read the line about the "arguably the most important intellectual" in the world and so on comes from a publisher's blurb. And you always got to watch those things (audience laughs) because if you go back to the original you'll find that that sentence is actually there -- this is in The New York Times
-- But the next sentence is: "Since that's the case, how can he write such terrible things about American foreign policy?" And they never quote that part. But in fact if it wasn't for that second sentence I would begin to that I'm doing something wrong.Yes, it vital question. Since we have few film-makers in our midst perhaps they will answer this question.The nice folks at FFF (Films For Freedom) do feature good documentary feature films regularly. A few requests for documentary films have come in for BFS in this mailing-list too. There is page on our BFS Wiki(http://bfs.wikia.com)where people posted their film collection. Perhapssharing of documentary film for home viewing is alsoone possible solution.


Arky says
As Girish mentioned Moore's films were quite a hit and caused discussion wherever screened. Recently the screening of 'Loose Change 911'[1] by FFF(Films For Freed) was followed by long discussions that really never happened before.Perhaps documentary films are far reaching and effective or people just lost the habit of readingbooks that now author's like Moore choose to make documentary films instead of writing books.[1] Loose Change 911 can be downloaded from their website http://loosechange911.com or can be seen on most video sites like Youtube and Google Videos. Do see the archives of this mailing-list about the film.


Dipa says
I am all against movies taking over books. I don’t think it can ever do that. A thousand words that a picture is supposed to speak, as the cliché goes...are irrelevant when it comes to the power a sentence carries. Just my opinion.
Another thing Rakesh, I have read what Micheal Moore writes. .Oh, I am so glad he chooses to make movies. He is too pompous to be able to write.
Thank god for small mercies.


Manish says
Availability is certainly an issue with documentaries. Most of the so called video houses don’t have them as they cater to a very limited audience.Documentaries need not be boring all the while. Does non-fiction mean documentaries? i dont think so. Documentaries can have stories in them. Documentaries just make a point, it could be through stories or statistics. While you see Anands documentaries as very serious ones, you findMoore's which are cynical and funny at times, if you listen keenly. Then there are others too: If you've heard of 'Penn and Teller Bullshit!' yeah its the name of a series of well, cant exactly call them documentaries, neither can call them investigative journalism, its hangs in there somewhere.:-) Documentaries with de-glamorized characters became Art movies, didn’t they?


Arky says
Its an old documentary (1967 according to imdb). The imdb link that Amol sent is righthttp://imdb.com/title/tt0062374/Thats the one. It was a very real, well-made and disturbing documentary about mental illness. I heard its banned in the US ( I don’t see any reason why it should be. I guess the US govt. doesn’t like true to god investigations about its institutions within the prison ). I got a copy of the film recently. There are lots of places in which you can get the movie. Try bittorrent. I heard it’s also available on google video (not sure though).

Thank you for sharing information about a thedocumentary.,Bharani says
It was a very real, well-made and disturbing documentary about mental illness. I heard its banned in the US (I don’t see any reason why it should be. I guess the US govt. doesn’t like true to god investigations about its institutions within the prison ).According to IMDB entry the state filed a case against the film-maker and the court ruling was based invasion of inmate privacy, it is very valid legal writ (in most legal cannons). But using such legal bindings to curtail the artistic freedom of film-maker is wrong. Anyway it would be make a good moot point.I think it would be a great if the movie could be screened at one of our events.


Dipa says
Well I don t know for true but documentaries with de-glamorized characters are never art movies.
There is a very big difference. Documentaries with glamorized characters may still be on the way but it certainly isn’t de-glamorized. Yes all this has a niche audience. That’s the trouble with this.
Anand is a serious docu maker.There are light ones who make pointless ones and there are others like Micheal Moore whom i cannot categorise.He is cynical and funny...and he tried to say a lot .But farenheit 9/11 has too much shock value for people to take it seriously.Even if all of it was true,Most people did not realy get influenced by it.Remember ...Bush was re-elected post farenheit.And around that time there was another one on John Kerrry also I think.So I would not really quote 'Farenheit' as one of the path breaking documentaries.
And yeah,documentaries mix with art at one level...I think those are the most beautiful.

And yeah..non-fiction does not mean documentaries.A documentary is something that documents the truth wereas fiction doesnt.When documentaries go into elaborate and exclusive story lines they start resembling docu-dramas which is not something i enjoy in particular.


Sim says
Probably its a bit off the subject, But I would really like to know theopinion of the junta on the school of Iranian movies which walk on thatthin line between documentary and not.I remember reading an article on taste of cherry' by Abbas Kiarostami,I think was posted in the collective chaos group, which said that mostof the scenes in the movie was shot with real people, the candid camerakinda thing, were the reactions of the people were recorded.When you sit and explain that as a director, probably sounds very cooland maybe you will have people to glorify it, but it probably qualifiesas fictional documentary. Documenting real people, with of coursefiction in mind.Like I said a bit off the subject..



Arky says
I believe Abbas Kiarostami most often work with localpeople wherever he is shooting. His 'Kane-ya doustkodjast?'(Where's my friends house?) screened recentlyhad some great performance from village folk. I don'tknow why he choose his actors like that, but its notcandid camera for sure.

Malavika says
i dont think i ever said that people dont watch documentaries, but when you talkof the common man, you dont only pertain to people in and around yoursurroundings only. if you take up a city like bangalore itself, how many peopledo you think would or ever have seen a documentary, im taking maybe around 10%or maybe a little more. thats not very good. why do you think video stores dontstock up on documentary films, cause they dont have the market for it, unlike afew documentaries like fahrenheit 9/11, and anand patwardhans films, and a fewothers here and there who's documentaries generate so much controversy thatpoeple want to view it out of curiosity, documentary films in themselves are notsomething many people willingly go looking for untill and unless they are reallyinto it.


one thing i do know is that it is harder to make a documentary than a normalfiction film. you really need to be that much more creative to compile all yourideas and execute them cause in a documentary you dont have the luxury to workwith a fixed story board, it all depends on the creatrivity of the person andthier ability to take what is given to them and make a beautiful film from it. ido agree there are a lot of wildlife films and other stories which air regularlyon tv and which are really well made and gripping. they are educational but arethey entertaining?


Arky says
I rather have to disagree there, some film-makers getthe ideas straight and puts the horse before the cart.They give more preference to communicating to theaudience over technical wizardry(or just couldn'tafford it). Robert Rodriguez's 'El Mariachi' which wasscreened at BFS recently is good example, closer homewe had Nagesh Kukunoor 'Hyderabad Blues' and RitaChandel's documentary 'Safar' which was screened atAsian Women's Film Festival.

Hari says
In feature films the director is God; in documentary films God is thedirector.-Alfred Hitchcock



Sushma says
I had that horrible sinking feeling in the stomach when I read oneparticular mail through the discussion about documentary films. While Irespect every viewpoint, its appalling that one is so callously dismissiveabout another medium of expression, another method of telling a story. WhileI feel that even a commercial filmmaker would want to clarify a few issuesabout his work (though the writer claims to know all about what goes intomaking a commercial film) I thought being a documentary filmmaker I shouldelaborate a little bit on what goes into making one. I have quoted thewriter's lines in brackets and tried to respond to them.(Strongly differ on that. One point of view could be that documentaries(since they are not fiction) are easierto make: One just has to take up an issue, shoot facts, edit and present,right?)- Yes, one just has to take up an issue for a documentary film. But that'svery much like how the commercial filmmaker takes up one - like sayinfidelity. Except that in fiction one has a Shahrukh Khan acting it, and adocumentary film will have a real person, like you or me who is living it orhas lived it, sharing / baring her life - on camera. So, you have got thepoint about 'shooting facts' right. Its just that these facts are about realpeople who have never been able to speak up. More often than not,documentaries tell stories of people who have been silenced by people likeus who choose not to know about other realities or simply don't care. Sowhen one edits and presents these facts, one has to take care about what oneis saying. Because it is not about whether the film is going to bring inmoney, but whether one has done justice to the voice that one has shown /represented in the film.(Commercial cinema, on the other hand has a rather challenging task: Whilethe truth in documentaries can hold a very specific type of audience,commercial cinema caters to all. The challenge is to hold the attention ofthe audience for a long 3 hours: the storyline has to be different, thecinematography, choreography, lighting, direction all has to be unique forthat. These challenges are relatively lesser in making a documentary.)- Yes, to quote you, the 'truth in documentaries' holds a very specific typeof audience - to repeat myself 'an audience who cares about other realitiesthan one's own'. Here, I would like to mention that Anand Patwardhan's 3hour long 'War and Peace' ran to a full house for 2 full weeks in Mumbai andnow Madhusree Dutta's 'Seven Islands and a Metro' will be released in 3theatres in Mumbai on 6th October. You know, even we documentary filmmakersare always struggling to find a different storyline, cinematography,lighting, direction. What is the best way for me to tell you that the womenin Kurubarakunte need not walk 5 kms. for water anymore because they nowhave rainwater tanks outside their doors? It becomes all the more difficultbecause, who cares whether these women get water at all!(Since it is non-fiction and supposed to be presenting crude facts, etc. thedirector can have the luxury (or pretense) of not caring for any of these.For all we care, even candidly shot films can pass off as documentaries, notcommercial cinema)- Look around you.surely, you must know that the commercial filmmaker isafforded more luxury in terms of all faculties that go into filmmaking thana documentary filmmaker.(The most important task for a documentary director would be deciding theexact content one wants the audience to see. Editing expertise is crucial)- You are demeaning the role of a 'commercial' filmmaker.One needs to take more care before making a comment like 'hardwareengineering is less exciting than software engineering' or for that matter'rajkumar is more important than vishnuvardhan!'


Sai says
This is just in reply to the availibility issue of documentaries :For 'Night and fog' the link for the torrent is : http://www.torrentspy.com/torrent/865479/Night_And_Fog_rare_documentary_ww2 And for 'Titicut Follies' :http://www.torrentspy.com/torrent/783069/Titicut_Follies_1967 Trust me 'Night and Fog' is worth waiting all the hours waiting for it to download . .... ;)



Venky says
agree...we have no business running down one genre and touting another.
Both documentary and feature films,I guess, pose their own unique challenges to a filmmaker.

There are good documentaries and bad ones as much as there are good feature films and lousy ones!


Girish says
If you ask anyone how easy is it to draw a sunflower?the answer will surly be 'very easy'. Now if thequestion is can u paint the Sunflowr like Van Goghdid? not smae answer isn't it?......Van Gaogh'sSunflower is the product of a life long creativestruggle.Similarly when you say "Documentaries are easier tomake: One just has to take up an issue, shoot facts,edit and present, right?" it only demonstrate how LOWyour expectations out of this great medium.And there are lots of great documentaries made in thehistory which stand equal to Van Gogh's Sunflower.They are not made by- just has to take up an issue,shoot facts, edit and present, right? attitude.With due respect to film medium,



Manish says
In any creative medium, there is the amateur and the master.Making a Van Gogh needs that kind of ability for sure. Where'sthe debate?The relative comparison is with respect to the process, not the intricate descisions or quality of films from both the medium.There are good films and bad. The points made do not reflectany expectations from the medium at all, nor low or high.Is this getting misinterpreted and twisted just for the sake of a debate?

THE DA VINCI CODE

Mohan says
Should The Da Vinci Code be banned? Should creativity be held ransom by a few religious zealots? It's happened in the past and it is happening again. The censor board has become a political tool for manipulation by vested interests. The censor board has in the past not cleared movies to be screened, delayed in taking decisions, asked for excessive and unjustified cuts and harassed filmmakers. Do we need a censor board deciding for us as to what is viewable and what is not? There are twin issues here. First, being the need for a censor board and second the banning of movies. 'Final Solution' made by filmmaker Rakesh Sharma, is a documentary film on post Godhra riots and the fallout and implications of the riots. The director had to take his case to the courts to get things cleared, and above all it was not screened at the Mumbai Film Festival. The BJP felt that the documentary should not be screened in India and created roadblocks, but in the end justice was done to the filmmaker. Many filmmakers have been harassed like this before. Is not grading the movies ala western style and not ask for cuts a better solution. Let the people decide what is to be viewed and what is not is not to be viewed.
Coming back to the Da Vinci Code, if movies are to present only the goody-goody things in life, never an alternate point of view, never a cruel past, never the evils, and then why a have a movie. Now we have moral policemen in white telling us what to write, what not to write, what film to make and what not to. What next? If the book 'The Da Vinci Code' written by Dan Brown is a work of fiction then what is the need for protests. The plot is already known to the whole world. Even the media has failed miserably in hyping it up, by not having a serious debate on faith versus fact or at least facilitating one. We should be encouraging historical research on religion not discouraging it. Banning will make the movie go underground. Pirated copies is bound to make it too every nook and cranny of Bangalore and India. Finally, it's being released with a disclaimer that the movie is a piece of fiction. The contentious issues, for which these religious zealots are arguing their case is highly debatable. They seem to be saying that they have a copyright when it comes to matters of religion, faith, and history. Well, I have had my say, what about yours?

Arky says

The movie released in theatres in Bangalore yesterday. Though I usually side the filmmakers side with argument of artistic freedom and all, but unfortunately there isn't anything artistic about this movie'The Da Vinci Code ;o). Bulls eye, the movie houses benefit from such controversy and 'The DaVinci Code' seems to have raked in $230 million the first week. Butfor an indie or documentary film-maker its beneficial as anvil landing on his head. Another film which is creating ripples seems to be'father, son and holy war' I don't know much about this film yet. I had read an electronic version the book 'The Da Vinci Code' before it hit the stores here in Bangalore. It was a fun reading it on computer and cross-referencing the events, places and art works online. Only later the companion art books for the 'The Da Vinci Code'were released and damnation books followed starting with Time magazine supplement. 'The Da Vinci Code' is for the present what 'Around the world in 8O days' would have been for turn of the century Londoner. A foray intoexotic world of orient is no longer exciting so lets go back in timeto person of knights, secret societies and master craftsmen. Few otherbooks like 'The Rule of Four' and more recently 'The exile' startingdigging out history and re-packaging facts for entertainment. Regarding the religious context of the book 'The Da Vinci Code', I would rather watch the BBC series on biblical stories and people than read Dan Brown.

THE DREAMERS

Thejesh says

Last night I watched this movie called 'The Dreamers'

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0309987/
It was very disturbing kind of a movie. Probably will write a review later in the day.
Has anybody else seen this movie?

Amol says
Yes I have watched Bernado Bertolucci's 'The Dreamers' . Though I am not sure if Disturbing is the word I wud use. Maybe its because I watched Bertolucci’s Paris in the Last Tango http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070849/) , and I felt that all the "disturbing" scenes, that the movie had, redeemed itself at the end. All the pieces fitting in and fitting in pretty well.
So in a way I was kinda prepared for the scenes in very odd subconscious way when the Movie was set in Paris. IMHO I think that if you can keep a free mind (also read as get used to Bertolucci) during the scenes, you might feel the movie is, let me take a big nervous sigh and say, good.


But I did feel that there were a few missing pieces, like the reaction of the parents when they see three of them in Bed, or may be in the Obvious way Theo talks about Vietnam.
I felt that Dreamers was about dreamers. The way we are confused about what’s going on around us, and feel the frustrations for doing nothing about it . You sense that restlessness in the characters, the movie being set in 1968, when the riots are on

SLEEPY FILMS....YAWN!!

Tushar says
I have been thinkin about this for some time now. There are period films, informative films, personal sketches, biographies,fictionalizations, and so on. I understand that a prerequisite of allthese films is proximity to fact. But often, I(for lack of knowledge may be), find most of the oft celebrated films to be downright boring. I don't know if its a personal problem or the lack ofconnection with the plot. But many a times I have been embarassed,rather short on speech to appreciate the so called accalaimed classics. Was just wondering, has it ever happened to you whensomeone suggested you a classic and you simply took the sleep routein the first few scenes.It has often happened with me, and pardon me if you didnt sleep in Good Night, and Good Luck, O Brother Where Art Thou, Chariots of Fire, Amistad, The Village, etc etc.I am not saying that I didnt like these films when I saw them the next slumber-free morning(in a regretful and apologetic emotion), but still they did have the magical yawn quality in them. I am not even going to the world of obscure films(like dirty dancing(!)), thats why only mentioned the UNusual suspects.Can you add to this list, or do you have any personal yawn films?Don't worry about the "are you nuts?!" reactions and raised eyebrows,it is bound to happen inevitably one day in all our lives :-)

Idio says
Before i put forth my nominee I would like to declare my open-mouthed, jaw-scrapes-the-floor surprise at the inclusion of 'Obrother where art thou' in your list. It's a rabble-rousing,cocophanous, foot-tapping, eccectic oddball which scarecly warrants a blink let alone a 'snooze'. Now to put forth my nomination to the 'ZZZ' list:- AdoorGopalakrishnan's acclaimed national and international awardsweeping 'Kathapurushan'. Knocks me out every damn time like a lefthook to the medula oblangota. I was then reduced to sampling partsof the movie everytime it played and i somehow manage to piece ittogether. What a relief that was! Another snoozer fest was Gus Van Sant's acclaimed take on the lastdays of a Kurt Cobain-ish rock star imaginatively titled 'LastDays'. Oh God! What a trudge! Why is the director hellbent onshowing me plants along the riverside? Oh look, the leaf moved..finally! Whats that the actor is saying? Get the hell on Gus VanSant. and now for the ending, a story of hope and redemption. DavidCronenberg's 'Dead Ringers' and 'Naked Lunch'. At the beginning ofthe year, I found myself hitting 'Z' sharp five minutes in. Butsomehow a couple of months ago, I found a strange silent twistedbeauty emanating from these movies. Before long, I found myselffascinated, suckered in completely. I wanted to watch them again andagain and again.
Moral of Story: There's no need to deprive yourself of sleep in thepresence of the classic. If it's any damn good you'll be drawn backtowards it.

Geeth says
I've been reading the discussions in this group forseveral months now but have never posted so far.Tushar's message about Sleepy Films prompted me towrite. My "yawn" film confession might scandalize quite a fewhere - considering that it has been listed in someplaces as the best movie ever made - Casablanca! I bought the DVD based on the recommendation of one such"100 best movies" list, convinced I would like it, but it took me a full year to watch the film completely.The film could not sustain my interest for more than5-10 minutes each time I watched from where I left off last. I finally got through to the end by turning theaudio to French to get myself to pay more attention and not doze off. On the other hand, I immensely enjoyed O Brother Where Art Thou - one of Tushars sleepy films! At least forme, I know that I must in some way identify with the subject of the movie to really enjoy it, before I cansee the film for any of its other merits.

Hari says
..reading the discussion on 'sleepy films' i suddenlyremembered what Kiarostami said in an interview. Abbas Kiarostami: "I prefer films that put theiraudience to sleep in the theater. I think those filmsare kind enough to allow you a nice nap and not leaveyou disturbed when you leave the theatre. On the other-hand there are films that nail you to your seatand overwhelm you to the point that you forgeteverything, but you feel cheated later. I absolutelydon't like films in which the filmmaker take theirviewers hostage and provoke them. Some films have made me doze off in the theatre, but the same films have made me stay up at night, wake upthinking about them in the morning, and keep onthinking about them for weeks. Those are the kind offilms I like."
i agree with him.

CANNES 2006

Hari says

Pedro Almodovar, Aki Kaurismaki, Nanni Moretti, NuriBilge Ceylan (UZAK), Ken Loach......... among the topdirectors competing for the prestigious Palme d'Or atCannes film festival 2006 stated on 17th Friday. Details, photographs, press conversations by directorsare all available at: http://www.festival-cannes.fr/

full list of films in competition:

Pedro Almodovar, Volver (Spain)

Andre Arnold, Red Road (UK)

Lucas Belvaux, The Right of the Weakest (Belgium)

Rachid Bouchareb, Days of Glory (Algeria)

Adrian Caetano, Chronicle of a Flight (Argantina)

Nuri Bilge Ceylan, Climates (Turkey)

Sofia Coppola, Marie-Antoinette (USA)

Pedro Costa, Youth on the March (Portugal)

Guillermo del toro, Pan's Labyrinth (Mexico)

Bruno Dumont, Flandres (France)

Nicole Garçia, According to Charlie (France)

Xavier Giannoli, When I was a Singer (France)

Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu, Babel (Mexico)

Aki Kaurismaki, Lights in the Dusk (Finland)

Richard Kelly, Southland tales (USA)

Richard Linklater, Fast food nation (USA)

Ken Loach, The Wind that Shakes the Barley (UK)

Lou Ye, Summer Palace (China)

Nanni Moretti, The Caiman (Italy)

Paolo Sorrentino, The Family Friend (Italy)

Girish says

i will put my bet on ALMODOVAR, he is simply superb,and deserve many of those palme whatever. (I think henever won one, he only got best director.) any predictions guys? (i am aware of the pastsurprises at Cannes, but still) what about a prediction poll or something? Alok saysprediction poll? :)
when none of us have watched any of the films in competition and it will be at least a couple of years before we get to watch any of those movies on dvd!!!
even with all of these technological advances, I still think we are living in a culturally isolated place.

Idio says

Come on Alok.. we're just rooting for our fav directors. Just chilland get chanting. Amoldvar is just too predictable for Cannes juries who have aprediliction of show off a bit. I for one would love Guillerimo DelToro to pick up something for Pan's Labyrinth. After all, he's theguy brightened up my life with the wonderful, gleeful 'hellboy'. I'dalso like Linklater whom i consider the only true auteur of thedigital generation. But early word-of-mouth seems negative. Ofcourse there's Krausmaki who probably would be a good bet for thedirector category. And of Donnie Darko director Richard Kelly'sSothland Tales which is touted to be a sci-fi musical. And itstars 'The Rock'. An award for that would certainly be apreciated byme. Going by the chinese origins of jury president Wong Kar Wai, I thinkcontroversial chinese flick 'Summer Palace' too stands more than achance. But if you're expecting me to wear short skirts and fling pom-pomsand go chearleading I'd go "G-U-I-L-L-E-R-I-M-O".

Girish says

i agree about the predictability of Almodovar. my second choice will be Nuri Bilge Ceylan, have youguys seen Uzak, simple and very engaging with anamazing observation of human nature, but this time heis observing himself, in CLIMATES (which is incompetition) he is playing the lead along with his ownwife, and film is about the relationship. My be bitunglamourous for the Cannes. but i think wong kar waimay like it. if you want to know what guardian is betting for: http://film.guardian.co.uk/cannes2006/story/0,,1774184,00.html

Arky says

Morning Friends, And the Winner is .....France with Ken Loach winning the festival's top prize, thePalme d'Or, for his feature film "The Wind That Shakes theBarley. "[This] film is a little step in the Britishconfronting their imperialist history," Loach said tonight,accepting his prize on stage at the Lumiere Theater inCannes. "And if we tell the truth about the past, maybe wecan tell the truth about the present." The jurors awardedtwo prizes to Pedro Almodovar's "Volver", the screenwritingaward to Almodovar and notably presented the best actressprize to the entire cast of women in the movie. And gave thebest actor award to the complete cast of Rachid Bouchareb's"Indigenes."At a post-ceremony press conference, the festival jurors,including president Wong Kar Wai along with Monica Bellucci,Helena Bonham Carter, Samuel L. Jackson, Patrice Leconte,Lucrecia Martel, Tim Roth, Elia Suleiman, and Zhang Ziyi,said that they made their decision immediately this morning,unanimously.Loach's "The Wind That Shakes The Barley" recalls Ireland'sfight for independence through the story of two brothers in1920 who join others to form a volunteer army to fight the"Black and Tan" squads who are brought over from Britain toblock Ireland's quest for independence. Both brothers aredriven by their personal feeling of duty and passion fortheir country and embark on a dangerous mission to bring theBritish to a breaking point, resulting in both sidesagreeing to a truce to end the standoff. Nevertheless, civilwar erupts and families who fought together earlier, are nowsudden enemies."I feel stunned, to be honest," Loach told journalists afterthe ceremony, noting that his 13th trip to Cannes turned outto be the lucky one. Reflecting on the fact that the awardstonight honor films that are about political issues, Loach said, "We live in extraordinary times that have made peoplepolitical in a way that maybe they weren't four, five or sixyears ago," and praising Cannes organizers he said, "Theyhave put the festival and cinema back at the center of ourlives."Pedro Almodovar tonight in Cannes, after his film wasawarded two prizes at the 2006 Festival de Cannes.

Pedro Almodovar, his second time in competition here inCannes, again won an award. Accepting his screenwritingaward on stage, he said, "My movie is about family amongother things, a family of women." And earlier in theceremony, the complete cast of women from the movieincluding Penelope Cruz, Yohana Cobo, Lola Duenas, CarmenMaura, and Blanca Portillo accepted the award. Honoring herdirector, Penelope Cruz said, "I think this award reallybelongs to Pedro, to the master."Acknowledging that he was quite aware that many consideredhim a frontrunner for the Palme d'Or this year, just as hewas a few years back when he won the directing prize for"All About My Mother," Pedro Almodovar said after theceremony, "To be the favorite until the end, I would like totell you it is a curse -- a maldicion." But he added, "Itdoesn't mean I am complaining. The script is the base of themovie."Asked whether he was dispappointed to fall just short of thePalme d'Or this year with his Grand Prix, runner-up award,director Bruno Dumont said, "I make films that try to takerisks and try to surprise the (audience) -- I am trying toget through to an individual, Wong Kar Wai or somebody in acinema anywhere. Each indivoudal is as important as thepresident of a jury."The complete list the 2006 Festival de Cannes are beingannounced tonight in France.Palme d'Or: "The Wind That Shakes The Barley" by Ken LoachGrand Prix (runner-up): "Flanders" by Bruno DumontPrix de la Mise en Scene (Best Director): Alejandro GonzalezInarritu for "Babel"Prix du Scenario (Best Screenplay Award):Pedro Almodovar for"Volver"Camera d'Or (For best first feature): "A Fost sau n-a fost?"(12:08 East of Bucharest) by Corneliu PorumboluPrix du Jury (Jury Prize): "Red Road" by Andrea ArnoldPrix d'interpretation feminine (Best Actress): Ensemblefemale cast of "Volver" by Pedro Almodovar (Penelope Cruz,Carmen Maura, Lola Duenas, Blanca Portillo, Yohana Cobo,Chus Lampreave)Prix d'interpretation masculine (Best Actor): Ensemble malecast of "Indigenes" by Rachid Bouchareb (Jamel Debbouze,Samy Naceri, Sami Bouajila, Roschdy Zem, Bernard Blancan)Court-Metrage (Short Film): Palme d'Or (short film):"Sniffer" by Bobby PeersPrix Du Jury: "Premiera Nieve" by Pablo AgueroSpecial Mention: "Conte de quartier" by Florence MiaiheUN CERTAIN REGARDPrix Un Certain Regard - Fondation Gan Pour le Cinema:"Luxury Car" by Wang ChaoPrix Special du Jury Un Certain Regard: "Ten Canoes" by RolfDe HeerPrix d'Interpretation Un Certain Regard (acting award):Dorotheea Petre for "The Way I Spent the End of the World"(Cum Mi-Am Petrecut Sfarsitul Lumii) by Catalin MitulescuPrix d'Interpretation Un Certain Regard (acting award): DonAngel Tavira for "El Violin" by Francisco VargasPrix du President du Jury Un Certain Regard: PatrickGrandperret for "Meurtrieres"CINEFONDATIONPremier Prix: "Ge & Zeta" by Gustavo RietSecond Prize: "Mr Schwartz, Mr. Hazen & Mr. Horlocker" byStefan MuellerThird Prize (shared): "Mother" by Sian Heder and "A Virus"by Agnes Kocsishttp://www.indiewire.com/cannes/

Now, now my dear man Cannes has always been known for its surprising prize selection. Do tell us why you think went wrong ?

Tushar says

well, to begin with I had no idea who these people were, I mean thenominees. And I was scratching my head as to what Girish n idio werediscussing...guillerimo, almodovar et al. But later I went to thislink on The Guardian that Girish had sent, and did my lil research onthe nominees. From the shape of things, I expected the filmsSouthland Tales(being a sci-fi musical feat The Rock! and fromRichard Kelly of the famed Donnie Darko), Volver(almodovar-purely forour friend Girish/Vijay's strong faith on its director), Climates(self-engaging account...also coming from the guy who made UZAK),Pan's Labyrinth(FOR THE PURE FUN/JOY/ECSTASY OF SEEIN IDIO "wearshort skirts and fling pom-pomsand go cheerleading and go G-U-I-L-L-E-R-I-M-O"!), to get preference.

Though, being ignorant doesn't buy you any free meals, so I reallycan't say if any of these claims/wishes were legitimate. I saw therushes of Marie Antoinette and for the first time, slept through thetrailor of a film!n that too coming from Sofia Coppola!(Oh! how Iwish Kirsten Dunst stops acting(oh m sorry if I used the word actingfor fluttering eyelids and trying to lookconcerned/emotional/reactive/lovelorn etc etc.She is so desperatelytryin for an award(Monalisa Smile, Wimbledon, and now this!)thatsomeone might as well give her a Lifetime Achievement Award forTryin' Hard at Gettin' an Award(causing many casualties in her noblecause), and we will have a much happier Dunst-Free world!I somwhow like Inarritu's Bhelpuri Cinema, so I have no qualms aboutBabel pickin best director.But another funny thing was the ensemble casts gettin both actors andactresses trophies. Imagine if we start the practice in India and GodForbidden LOC Kargil wins it!!!! They would have to hand 36 Filmfaretrophies to the cast(unless more actors come to claim it!)Moreover,in future, why the hell would someone pay a fortune to big stars toact in their films, they will simply say, "here is a package deal foryour entire family! we will all fly to antarctica in a start to finish(!) shoot, and I want all 27 of you in the cast, kids (born n unborn-highly unlikely considering the 'cold n polar' chemistry inthe 'poles') included."One guy who would be happy with ensembles gettin these awards wouldbe our very own shaadi specialist Sooraj Barjatya, who will finallysay with pride, "see, salman got an award for best acting, does notmatter if he had to share it with Tuffy the Puppy!"olright olright, I think I need an award now to shut up.

Alok says

Actually I am glad that Ken Loach won. He has been making films quietly for the last more than thirty years about unfashionable subjects (perhaps thats why he is not as widely known as, say, Almodovar) like the plight of the working class and marginalised people in britain and elsewhere and the struggles they go through in living a life of basic human diginity. I have so far managed to see only two of his films. First, Kes which he made in the early seventies, is a moving tale about the struggles of a kid born to poor working class people who befriends a falcon (he names it Kes) and thinks he would one day be free from the squalor and hopelessness of his life by flying just as the falcon... His other film Bread and Roses, which came a few years back and was shown at the cannes film festival of that year too, is about the struggles of low paid mexican immigrant workers in america to unionize themselves and the hurdles they face against the capitalist bureaucracy. His films have a definite left leaning agenda but are very honest in their depictions of the harshness of the life of poor working class.I am also glad that more and more political films are getting recognized these days. Earlier this year the major films at Berlin were explicitly political too. It is a welcome trend in my view. Some random links if you are not familiar with Loach's work

About Kes http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/artsandentertainment/0,6121,1217673,00.html

Girish says

Guys,Yes, i am bit disappointed at the cannes result,but as arky said it is the usual cannes style, iunderstand, i lost money on Almodovar. But i also haveto confess that i haven't seen many films by KenLoach, so it is unfair to complain. (any way wong karwai's selection can't be bad.....i hope)

Does Cinema bring about social change?

Arky says

There is no other way of asking this question "Does cinema bring about social change?". Today when cinema is just a few hours of blissful distraction for ever 'Chill' GenX, does this medium just another means of entertainment.


Idio says
And as for cinema bringing about social change, well, I wouldn't put any of my money on that. Sure a film can inspire a trend, a style, but 'social change' would be essentially over-reaching.

It was Amol Palekar who said that cinema is the synthesis of society and we're getting the kind of films we do precisely because of what we are and what we deserve and I think he gives a good enough answer to your query.

Cinema and all art can be a voice of dissent. It can be used quite effectively as a part of propaganda/indoctrination. It can serve as a cautionary tale. It can even be used to increase the world-view and even, sensitize society.

Case in point.. Fahrenheit 9/11. After watching the polemical movie no one in the right state of mind would vote for ol' Georgie boy. And that the movies coffers piled over a 100 million US dollars indicates that it was widely seen. Director Moore even sacrificed his Oscar nomination when he played the movie on free for all cable a couple of days before the election.

And two days later.. Geogie boy cruises back to the White House.

But to spark a full scale social revolution.. cinema is too soft, too fantastical.

Tushar says
It is such a coincidence that I had the same discussion at a `drunk' screening held my place recently where some of us watched Water and it sparked off the "social relevance" plea of
cinema. some recollections:
"what is the point of you watching such cinema, and it being made, if it does not change/affect you…"
"it is all so ironic that a film cannot be shown in the very country it is made for"

"films are an aftermath of social churning and they can rarely induce a change in society per se"
"I really would not get up and go changing the world just because a film blew me away. And that will still not deter me from my obsession/love for the film"
"I love the medium, not the ends that one might try to achieve using that medium"
"I love films. period."
"I am contributing enough by watching this film and discussing it with you"
"shut up, everyone, lets watch bunty aur babli now"(no need to mention who was that)

This, I must say has got me thinking. There are lots of things running in my head(ranging from Narmada bachao films to safdar hashmi to mulkraj anand(who said any creation of art is useless if it does not have a social relevance or responsibility) to rang de basanti(!))

I shall mull over it and come up with more points (hopefully constructive) for the discussion.

On a lighter note, films do change society. Films like kyun ki save our money that we can spend on better things. But you might end up spending more on painkillers and sleep inducing pills if you happen to watch it by any mischance.


Arky says
Mulk Raj Anand stayed as stanch activist till he his death in 2004. He entry into the literary words "was launched by family tragedy, instigated by the rigidity of the caste system. His first prose essay was a response to the suicide of an aunt, who had been excommunicated by his family for sharing a meal with a Muslim." ( from wikipedia.org)
Perhaps this event significantly shaped his ideas on social responsibility.

"I think cinema can have an influence on those who individual who are open and sensitive."

Though I can discuss many film, here I talk about a movie from north-east part of India. Perhaps this national award winning film was from Manipur or Tripura.

A rich landlord eyes a beautiful village belle. Being from a poor family the girls fathers agrees for the marriage to already married landlord. The landlord brings home his new bride, he bundles off his wife and children from the bedroom into a smaller room in the house.
In the later part of the movie the enraged land-lords wife takes a paramour and later conceives. The wife takes help of her friend the village mid-wife to convey this message. She isn't the yester-years meek sita who's is better the tantrums of male dominated society, but one who takes initiative to deliver a resounding rebuttal.

Its been a decade since I saw this movie on doordarsan and I remember very little. But perhaps it would have made the viewer think about this issue.


Many Indian film-makers dealt with social ills in both main-stream and art films. The problem like untouchability, caste system, child marriages, abuse of women and social inequalities like bonded labour, the problems faced by migrants etc.., were part of film one time or
the other.

As wise old men say the seeds of social change are sown individuals who change themselves. I wonder what good is a story or a film which doesn't make a viewer think and spark a vein of introspective thinking.

Malavika says
I don't know to what extent movies bring about social change but i do know that film stars have the power to gather crowds and persuade them to follow in their footsteps, for e.g take rajnikanth, his fans are so crazy about him they literally worship him that when in the movie padayappa the character leelavathi doesn't give him a chair to sit on when he comes to visit her in her house the fans went berserk, they raided ramya's house and apparently broke all her chairs and furnitures. some fans have even bulit temples of thier stars and worship them like gods (khushboo), if this is the power stars have then maybe a film about social awarness by such a person might have some effect.
at the end what the general publlic wants from a movie is entertainment, otherwise how do you explain movies like no entry becoming such hits. even if the movie has a social message people are not going to bother to watch it if they feel it isn't entertaining enough. the idea is to get people to watch the movie by doing which either literaly or subconsciously the message registers in thier brains. thats how awareness is created by bombarding the people with the same message over and over again like what adds do so that they are brainwashed to actually believe it. cause sometimes some people need to be reminded more than once for them to even show the smallest sign of reaction.

Arky says
Star power and Cinema Idols does exert influence on fans but don't you think that we are running out of roles models.

Tushar says
The ideas of cinema bringing about social change and screen stars being role models are a little different, i feel. we are talking about "film" as a medium that would transform the society, mostly for the better.

now i am bit wary as to if this would include the work these "stars" do as socially responsible citizens, rather sadly in a pompous way more often though.
I, for one, would not get even an inch motivated/inspired to clean up the city if i see a media-fanatic star holding a broom on the headline of a newspaper that would have rather carried a more pertinent news stories or pic.
this entire issue IMHO is more of being true and honest to your intentions. if a "star" wants to utilize his star status in a constructive way and promote social causes like Narmada Bachao(just an example), AIDS awareness, earthquake etc, he can very well do that without playing to the limelight of media's greedy eye.

Moreover, i feel music stars are doing way better than film stars lately in this regard. Example- shubha mudgal(man ke manjeere-rural women upliftment, sapna dekha hai maine-empowerment of the girl child, Ghoom tana with salman ahmad(junoon)-AIDS foundation), and indian and pakistani bands, even world bands like U2(the story about how BONO, U2's lead got into economic and social reform guru groove is interesting as is his outlook on the entire issue)
i happened to do this theatre workshop last month with school kids for CRY recently. now the final show was a stage production on Child Rights, and looking at the way the entire show was packaged and sold(it was a FedEx corporate event), with a relatively forgotten Pallavi Joshi
as a chief guest, really put me off and made me think why do we need heralds or social "band-leaders" for making voices for such causes heard?

are we that aperceptive and unaware a generation?
coming back to films, themes involving real, gritty issues are always treated with a mix of scorn and suspicion. a recent example that comes to my mind is that of "city of god", it was one of the few burning discussions on this forum few months ago.

looking at the positive side, we have seen some responsible cinema in this direction. though there might be reservations, i still feel Swades was responsible cinema. in the times of The Raj, films were used as a vehicle for social commentary to give the million voices of protest a common ground. but would they have contributed anything whatsoever to the revolution? yes
no may be may be not.
if you have seen La Haine, the french film on racism, you will know how gritty and apt films can get to nail in a point of reality. often films like these tend to fall under the garb of being preachy,pedantic and "boring" . but if a maker understands that he has to put across the point, he can as well make a documentary, which could be interesting in its narrative. an example would be The Take, the documentary on argentitian working class uprising and subsequent overtake of the factories (

Malavika says
For most of india the stars are their icons, they generally do tend to follow them. We may criticize these attempts of the stars as just tricks to get media attention (after all who wears plastic gloves when they sweep the floor) but a lot of people do tend to take these examples in a positive way. they are affected by it.


i know a lot has been said about rang de basanti but i do feel that even though the movie was to a certain extent far fetched, it did have an impact on many people. it compared the struggle for justice with the independence struggle. the images of freedom fighters are still revered with great pride, why do you think gandhi is still used as a mascot in many political rallies, people like to believe that it is possible for them to achieve that sort of status. so when you say that you can still fight for your rights and your selfless attitude will be remembered, people sit up and take notice.

Arky says
I liked 'Rang De Basanti' for its innovative story line which is we are getting to see quite enough in bollywood films these days, but the message it conveyed is very loop sided. It uses the story of the early freedom fighters who took to arm's at the behest of British tyrants, but comparing those troubled times with present is totally absurd. We are born in a free country and we don't really know how it is to live in under a foreign occupation.

The film portrays that social injustices can be fought by taking law into your hands is far fetched (as malavika has said). There are lots of people who have changed the communities they live in like person who brought watershed projects in Rajastan(Shown in Documentary on water), the former IIT graduate who generates power using mountain streams in HP and others.

The reason why taking up arms and causing bloodshed as means for social change appeals to today youth is due to instantaneous and abrupt results. Nobody's like a slow change with constant effort, it doesn't exist at all.

Did the movie influence people, "Yes" but it cause people to do some good "No".

Perhaps a documentary film is more effective than a feature films ?
what do you think, friends?

Malavika says
i don't think we are running out of role models. they are all around us, we have just forgotten were to look for them. instead of looking at the ground, we look up towards the stars to get inspired. you don't need a big personality as a role model, it could be anybody, from your teacher, parents, neighbor, it could be any ordinary person who we feel has achieved something extraordinary. why are we so disillusioned that we believe only a person famous can stand as a role model for people. Its not necessarily true.

Idio says
How can one run out of role models? I mean, they just keep adding up don't they. I mean, just because Aristotle turning in his grave doesn't mean he's any less of a role model or Voltaire or Phoolan Devi.

I guess what you mean is that there ain't many role models sprouting up these days. But still, I could consider Superman to be my role model. Who says they've to be all flesh and blood. Running out of role models.. thats pretty preposterous.

But i guess coming back to the topic.. if think we're straining a bit too hard if we hope cinema and pop culture to throw role-models at us. Are we even ready to accept role models fashioned out of art. For example:- Rang De basanthi. Sure as hell we enjoyed the inane exploits but nobody's belling the goddamn cat. You can take out a candle light procession but that'd just be inspiration, a reminder served by the movie but to think that movies would inspire a full scale revolution.. you need to be way out there to believe that.

like some guy put it so damn well," You can't win the war by killing the trumpeteers."

Girish says
whom are you referring to in your mail when you say 'WE' ? do you mean, the people in this list? people in this city? this country? why this generalization why cant you speak for yourself, in my case i am not looking up to any stars or role models, so why should i be accused of it. If you are looking up for them please deal with it first. And don't expect that is how every one is.

It sounds like you are accusing the society for running behind stars, at the same time by using the word 'we' you accept the fact that you are part of the same society. And also you by using 'we' you demonstrated your helplessness position of being part of this stupid society and forced to look up to the stars. A society is made up of individuals like you who can decide what they want. Just for the fun of it, if you replace the 'we' with 'I' you know how much difference it makes, and how much responsibility it gives to you as an individual

Malavika says
im not refering to anybody, im just talking about people in general. it doesn't nesseccerily have to refer to any particular person, its just a very collective term. i didn't mean to hurt anybodies sentiments.

Mohan says
A word speaks a thousand images, and a moving image speaks a million ones. A movie definitely inspires and empowers but does it bring about social change. I am skeptical about this. It can be a spur, a spark, a catalyst in social change. A movie all by itself cannot bring about a social change. Even if it does bring about a social change, the change is slow and gradual and definitely not overnight. Take the case of goody old Hindi movies, at the birth of Indian Cinema, nudity was not a big issue then as it was in the latter years. By nudity I don't mean a vulgar display of flesh. If it is needed for the scene and advances the scenes in a movie then I see no problem. But if it just for the sake of titillation to appease to the baser instincts in us then it begins to look vulgar and is a big turn off. Today the trend is reversed, skin showing and kissing have become
de-rigueur to sell. However it is not being done aesthetically.

The other changes would be that movies have brought about a subtle acceptance among relationships at least in cities. People have become more tolerant of same sex relationships, unmarried couples living together and so on. Issues like AIDS have also been given much publicity through movies. But if movies have to become of a tool for social change, then junk fantasy, escapist movies should be made less by filmmakers. Movies should be more realistic. Documentaries fit the bill, but are not as popular or appealing as conventional mainstream cinema.
It's hard to say, where one must draw the line between realism and fantasy. Earlier, in most Hindi movies patriotism was associated with just Paki bashing and wars. Things have changed however with the movie `Swades', which I would rank as the number one Indian movie on patriotism. In this movie patriotism was associated with mother earth, nature, crops, culture, traditions and much more.

Most people from the film fraternity are not interested in actively campaigning for causes that matter. They do things half-heartedly for the publicity. It's such a sham. Things would definitely be different if superstars come out on the streets and voice their protests and not do it from their drawing rooms. So the next time one sees an Amir Khan movie which has the actor fighting injustice we will be able to better connect with him and the movie, because he is no different in real life (NBA issue). Then I believe the impact of movies will be much more and the social change will be accelerated.

Hazaaron Khwaahishen Aisi/Language Barrier Debate and Beyond

Malavika says
finally got to watch hazaaron khwaisheinsh aisi. i heard so much about it on the group so had a lot of high hopes about the movie. i really liked it especially the way the director revolves the story around the female lead Geetha (Chitrangda Singh) and how these two men (Siddharth and Vikram) who represent two very different parts of society fall in love with her and how that relationship evolves through the years along with the struggle and the fight to come to this very abrupt end.

there is a line in the movie where Geetha in one of her letters to Vikram (Shiney Ahuja) says you know vikram no body gives a dam about this place its as if it doesn't exhist but still people here laugh sometimes. i think that is so true. i don't know about all of you but after hearing all those stories about biihar i would be a little apprehensive to go there. but still life in bihar goes on just like everywhere else, with all its problems and struggles. Its so easy for people to judge from afar.

I was a little disappointed when the movie started and i realised that it was in english. i feel the impact would have been much more had all the dialogues been in hindi and the movie might have catered to a larger audience to. thats just my opinion. please do let me know what you thought of the film.


Tushar says

Glad that you mentioned HKA when we are discussing about the new anddifferent bollywood, that makes us hope that we can have world classproducts in our own song and dance factory. Sudhir Mishra is amaster craftsman, I loved his Is Raat Ki Subah Nahi. And wasexpecting lots of similar products, cus this I thought was high onidea low on budget models, that can be realized without much of theregular pains of production. But he did not make anything all thistime, except for heading jury boards in several national filmawards. I had almost given all hope when I heard Sudhir Mishra ismerely used as a acting director to complete unfinished projects byAnant Balani(due to Anant's departure) I simply could not digest thefact that Sudhir Mishra could make Calcutta mail. I tried to seeChameli, but could not do so, despite of all my love for RahulBose's contained school of acting, and refined pronunciation. Allthis can be attributed to one tide of disgust called Kareena Kapoor,she was the reason I could not see Dev too. The only film that Ifelt used her painful verve and annoying `mojo' was Yuva, where shewas unpretentiously playing herself, except for the lastfew "transformational" scenes, where she develops this almost filmy-love for Arjun, Vivek Oberoi's character.Coming back to Mishra, HKA came out like this best acclaimed filmfrom India, a la salaam Bombay, bandit queen. I too, since had heardso much about it was particularly looking forward it. If I starttalking about how many levels at which the film works, it would takeme a long long time, and possibly the fourth watch of the film. Butenough has been said about the political overtones of the film, andlove in the times or "revolution" . but apart from that, the filmagain had the small-town feeling, that is also seen in films likeHaasil(a beautiful film inspite of formula elements- you simply cantmiss Irfaan in his controlled portrayal), Sehar(I am yet to seeit),and also seen in a brilliant series on star plus called StarBestsellers(watch Bhavren ne khilaaya phool – to see the brillianceof Tigmanshu Dhulia, who has also been a Maniratnam assistant) etc.moving further, I feel the use of English or hindi or any languagefor that matter should not make a difference to our watching of thefilm. Cus if it does, the movie is not coherent in its structure anddexterity. If you see traffic, you might wonder why couldn t theygive engish lines to Benicio Del Torro, since he can speak Englishtoo with some level of decent flair. But then when you think of thewhole film falling together in a theme of vignettes, you realizelanguage does not matter. It's the feeling you have in the lastshot, which you carry with you home, which matters eventually. HKA boasts of the best track ever by Shantanu Moitra, who teamed upsuccessfully with Swanand Kirkire, bringing a whole new rusticelement to the plot. I can never forget the song Baawra Man, I feelit has to feature in the ten songs of the decade(Indian) orsomething, due to the strong imagery it creates, and the morninglazyness it grips you with and leaves you with the disgust that youfeel at the end of a senseless day.Best thing about HKA is that it does not try too hard. The scenesvary from being average to good to exceptional. But you simply cant ignore the X factor of the involvement it creates. Be it the voiceovers, Shiny Ahuja's inspired performance, political commentary, theideologies of KK, and how he stands at the same with Chitraganda's character.Though it might sound unusual, but the sequence that I vividly canrecall is the selling of the parental – khaandani-riyasati- haveli(fort) to make it into a heritage hotel, is just so amazing, andnot to mention the last scene in the fields, and the numerous suchscenes establishing how young people from economically well offfamilies, left everything for a cause that looked like a revolutionthat will change everything and unite them with the bigger leftist global thought group.This fim was co-scripted by Ruchi Narain ,who made a film called Kal-yesterday and tomorrow. I don't know about the movie cus it hadhardly a 2-3 days run or something.

Suraj says

the thing is that if it is english or else hindi language is not abarrier, we can understand the movie through its subtitle, butwhatever it is Sudhir Misra who's directed.The movie whatever SudhirMisra does it is creative work, he doesn't give copy cat job, forinstance like Mani Rathnam's Yuva its the remake of english classicRun Lola Run, HKA is a critically aclaimed movie it was screened inmany Internationals Film Festival, its got good review, I praticallyhaven't seen the movie, but my heart says that itz beautiful movie andi would like to watch it !!!!!!!!

Vijay says
Well the movie won the best story award at the filmfare awards. Biharis i read somewhere, make up
almost 25% of the IAS! The situation is sad not just in Bihar, but also other states like Chattisgarh and
Jharkhand. I remember three years back, when i was travelling to Ranchi (there are a lot of places for
sight-seeing on the way), i was warned by the locals at a particular Dhaba not venture to any villages
or waterfalls or streams, cause naxalites were preset in large numbers. A good movie and worth a watch.

Gyanesh says

Sorry for this rather late post on this but i just joined today.(Introduction in a separate mail...) I read through the posts on HKA and loved the posts with analysis aswell as a recap of the liked elements of the film. Personally i also like this film and this film along with fewothers, makes me hopefull that yes it is possible here also. Hindifilm cinema is not doomed, it makes me think. Coming to the point made my Malavika that she would have loved ithad it not been in English or had it been totally in Hindi. I think that if you take away the english dialogues from the movieor make everything hindi (or any other laguage) - the film will mosea very essential elements of the movie. This movie is about acertain period in the history of a bilingual nation called India.The folks that are being talked about are the Rock and Rollenthusiasts with Jimi Hendrix & Marley's posters adorning the wallsof the hostel room (I think that was Shiny's room...) in Presidency College (was it Presidency? or some college like that). Now if youmake that urban indian crowd talk in total Hindi, it would tend tobecome phony, also probably hindi-is-our-national-language agendadriven movie. (With no offence meant to our national language) This in fact brings me to a very important question not just inmovies but in any form of art that the content & the form arestrongly bonded. Like think about Mrs. Dalloway and imagine if itcould be done with any other technique but Stream of Consciousness.Think of Prem Chand's Godaan and imagine it in English. Think of Satyajit's Ray's Apu Trilogy in Hindi/English. That way probably art as a construct crosses the shadowy lines (yesthe very same ones mentioned by Amitav Ghosh) dividing us on thebasis of language religion nation race or whatever. Probably this language barrier can be broken but then some geniushas to come down and break this ceiling transforming thisthoeretical construct into a form observable by a naked-layman's eye.

Idio says

"Probably this language barrier can be broken but then some genius has to come down and break this ceiling transforming thisthoeretical construct into a form observable by a naked-layman's eye." Why don't we peek at the other end of the spectrum? What if it is notgenius but a simplistic naivete that breaks the language barrier? Isn'taccessability directly proportional to simplicity rather than genius. Let's take for example a Jackie Chan movie. Taiwan to Timbuktu. HongKong to Himachal. It's a universal as you get. Hell, if the world isgetting flat someone probably drop kicked it on both sides. Take for example, Jackie's trademark blow to the crotch. Cinematicallyvery crude. But the pain and the humor will be conveyed even to theremotest tribes of Papua New Guinea. I had a first hand experience of naivette and over-dramatizationovercoming language barriers when I saw my first Kannada movie.. thename involving so many quirks of the tongue, I'm almost afraid to spellfearing a sprain. It was a loud, overblown story of an honest policeofficer put down by society who relinquishes his badge and builds up abloody bodycount all the way to the corrupt politicians. It was mostlya kiss, kiss, bang, bang routine peppered with a parallel comedy trackinvolving ugly guys dressed in drag, getting slammed in the crotch,pinched in the butts and inadvertantly ending up in awkward positionswith lecherous men who seem have a severe eye/brain defect. Let us also take the example of Mr. Bean. Try wearing a swinsuit withyour pants already on or walking with a chicken stuck on your head.Universal. And now on the mopre highbrow side of things. "Cuckoo"... if you evercome across the movie, don't let it slip by. It features 3 leadcharacters all of whom speak different dialects. Great movie. Aclassic. That'll be the genius for you. Till then, I'll settle for a kick in the crotch.

Gyanesh says

Genius does not mean a man sitting in an ivory tower. Genius also does not mean an obscure artist. Infact if you look at the history of scietific or artistic genius, they are the people who made things or make them look simple. The elegance of a mathematical proof is mostly determined by its simplicity which people have overlooked. "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - aren't these the words of a genius.
So if my mail appeared to convey that a genius is some obscure unreachable talent, then i am sorry. But if you see , i have clearly mentioned "observable by a naked-layman's eye.", which directly points to the populist art, Cinema in our case.
I totally agree with examples sited and their universal appeal, but mind you this is humor, which is quite different as a genre. IN fact i can add one more example to this - Chaplin !!! No words at all. Infact the whole set of silent movies - no language at all.
But that's not the point.

Idio says

Anyways, I take back the 'genius' quip I made. But I guess I picked upthe essence from what i read in your mail. Would you delcare thedirector of Jackie Chan movies to be strictly 'geniuses'?? And I'm notjust talking about the comedy genre. What about action? I watched the movie 'Ong Bak' (Enter the New Dragon, for those whocame in late) in Indonesian without a smattering a sub-titles. It wasTony Jaa glorious acrobatics all the way. It was a tour-de-force thatcut across negated language as essential for communication. and while on silent movies, I certainly wouldn't include them all.Take "Faust" and "Dr. Caligari"... they would seem alien tomany. "Chaplin" might be universal but "Buster Keanton?". Then thereis Un Chien Anadalou which would seem completely universal in it'sincomprehensibility. (ironic! I'm talking about breaking the lanugagebarrier and i use a 20 letter word) I think it was that it really doesn't require genius to break thelanguage barrier. But perhaps that was the point i made i my last post, but you seemed to limit it to comedy so therefore i decided to point out 'action'. If all else has failed then in the words of Uday Chopra in Neal 'N'Nikki... DUUHHHH!

Gyanesh says

I am not too sure as to what you gathered from my first post, but what i was referring to, when i mentioned the language barrier was this : The dialogues of an indian urban youth, influenced by rock n roll, by Hendrix & Co. if written in total hindi would sound phony. And the dialogues of such a character if put in Hindi would lose their spirit. Such dialogues if possibly can be written in Hindi, without losing their spirit, charm and romanticism would require a work of genius. And if you think that naivette can do this, think again.
It is just because of this problem of translation that Rabindro Shongeet is no more that when written in English or Hindi. Almost all poetry loses it's effect because of this problem. And French cinema sounds more obscene than it is, because the english subtitles fail to do justice to it.
So, to start with, I was not even talking about Comedy & Action. HKA is far from being calssified into any of these genres.
Dodo, you might want to re-read what you started debating about.

Idio says

'if possibly' written in Hindi?? Now why would anyone, Dodo or otherwise, bother with that kind ofan 'if'? And like you yourself pointed out 'hindi' would seem phony.Why could one want the dialogues in hindi even if they didnt lose thecharm and the ease? Why even ponder on that? What an excercise in thefutile. If only I had grasped the point better..... And that too when i had exams.

Tushar says

I agree with your views on HKA and the use of English. It so happenedthat due to lack of good/new stuff, I saw HKA some 4th time and itreaffirmed my belief in the effective way language has been used inthe film. Frankly, speaking, it would not affect my impression of thefilm if it was entirely said in Hindi. Its all about the honesty withwhich a director realizes his idea. And if at all there is anincongruity in the execution, it shows, to the dismay of the maker,as in the case of Maniratnam's last few offerings (YUVA-inspired froma good source but badly interpreted, to satisfy the Indian school ofConflict-resolution Cinema) which show incongruity in story as wellas the lack of a central strong idea. However, if someone triesto `push in' English or any other language for a purpose that isdetached from the `honest' intentions of an idea execution, it failsmiserably. Examples are aplenty.I would like to restate an excerpt from what I had initially thoughtabout it: …..moving further, I feel the use of English or hindi or any languagefor that matter should not make a difference to our watching of thefilm. Cus if it does, the movie is not coherent in its structure anddexterity. If you see traffic, you might wonder why couldn t theygive engish lines to Benicio Del Torro, since he can speak Englishtoo with some level of decent flair. But then when you think of thewhole film falling together in a theme of vignettes, you realizelanguage does not matter. It's the feeling you have in the lastshot, which you carry with you home, which matters eventually….. I don't know why people do not create a furor over the preposteroususe of English in films like Black. Aah….on second thoughts, its goodthat no one remembers that film considering it was such a painfullyhellish experience to see actors screaming all through the film likethey didn't get paid. I do not agree. A mixed use of language could have looked real.Language is a pertinent topic, and becomes all the more pertinent inCinema. It would also include the fruitless exercise of dubbing Indian films. It might work in cases like a Jurassic park or a kingkong(even leads to some hilarious results like "bhaago, Rose bhaago"in Titanic) but fails miserably when someone like Shankar tries toreplicate his southern success in the north, which was thankfullystopped for some time but has revisited us like a haunting memory nowin case of Anniyan/Apirichit. I also agree with Idio's point about simplicity being difficult toachieve, and something that a genius would ideally strive to achieve.And also, some things were, are and will remain universal always. He has already given a many lewd (and so, unforgettable!) examples toprove that. Again, anything that is merely done for incongruous motives willshow as an oddity/anomaly. The audience is no fool. If Sudhir Mishragoes ahead and makes all his upcoming ventures, like "Bahut niklemere armaan" the way he made HKA jus' because `it worked', I need nottell you the consequences. Personally, I do not know any language apart from hindi and English,yet watch at least one `alien' film everyday. So, for me anythingrelated to arts like cinema, theatre or music has no language. Forexample- `gibberish' is a powerful tool used successfully in theater,so is silence. And jus for the sake of example- the annual theaterfestival attracts a larger crowd for the not-so-much-known/spokenlanguage plays than the conventional English ones.Forget different languages, sometimes even a dialogue isdeconstructed in cinema. So often in films, we see a dialogue bleeding into an overpowering background music, even though you might want to hear the conversation you cant(example- iruvar). Why? Cusmaniratnam, not you, directed it, and he had a vision which herealized without any compromises. I agree that subtitles do injustice sometimes. But we really cant help it. It is plain impossible to retain the beauty of a language in translation. The love, as they say, will be lost. But once youunderstand this basic block, you will start appreciating andinterpreting them in your own sweet way. see tarkovsky's Mirrors andyou ll love the English translation of his father's poetry used inthe film. Or see Godard's new wave masterpieces and you will relishthe whim and humor in the beautiful lines, even though translated inEnglish. My dad used to tell me how many people learned hindi/Sanskrit( I amnot sure) long back to read and understand Chandrakanta Santati.Wonder who would do that now in the age of subtitles and translationsgalore....

Alok says

Great post Tushar. I agree with what you say. I think this is the reason why cinema has become the most dominant and effective form of inter-cultural communication in the contemorary world. The dialogues/subtitles are comparatively just one and (arguably) insignifant part of the overall langauge of cinema and it is this fact that allows cinema to transcend culural boundaries so easily, at least as compared to other traditional artforms. I can't speak of HKA not having seen the film yet, but yes, if the director's vision is honest and his understanding of his characters clear, then I don't think why it would matter if the dialogues were in hindi or in english. Gyanesh says
Is "if the director's vision is honest and his understanding of his characters clear" and the dialogues (in whatever language) mutually exclsuive?

Can one make streetside romeo in india talk Shakespearean dialogues from Romeo & Juliet and yet sound honest & real?
Can you make an NRI indian come back to india and talk in a rural dialect and yet sound honest & real ?

Is language not an inherent part of the depiction of character? For example take all these Coke ads featuring Aaamir Khan as a UP Bhaiyya (..burbug chauthee fail...), A punjabi farmer (...soniyon makhno..gane de keth vich tamatar kittho...), A Nepali Guide (...oooo Baakri hai...).
Now translate any of these dialogues in any other language and tell me if it sounds authentic,real,honest anymore....

As far as my introduction is concerned - well that's not really required.

This is real good thread coming on. Here are a few lines from a good song called Keep Talking: For millions of years mankind lived like the animals, till one day something triggered the power of their imagination and they learned to talk (-Pink Floyd).

Idio says

is there any compulsion for cinema to be 'honest and real'. StreetsideRomeo sprouts Shakespear. Why not?? Tell me somebody like Tarantinocan;t direct it? NRI speaks Bhojpuri. Tell me the director of "Darogababu, I love you" (whoever that may be) can't pull it off in a campymanner. I recall a scene from 'Dudley do-right' a cheesy bad BrendanFraser movie in which the Red Indians talk in an Italian slang. It wasprobably the highest point of the damn movie. Sure language is an inherent part of cinema. But congruity certainlyisn't. Imagine if the Punjabi character from The Aamir ads that you mention talks like that annoying Japanese. It could be fun, could it not? Why does 'Star Wars' not sound strange? It's famously set in a galaxy far far away and yet there are Brit, American, Scotish and Arabicaccents strewn all across. Why doesn't it sound stupid or phony?Because director Lucas pulls it off with panache. on the other hand, check out Nicholas Cages 'cagey' italian slang inCaptain Corielli's Mandolin. It falls face down. The blame fallssquare on the director. So what i'm trying to say is that let's not make rules and regulationsor even principles. Let cinema exist as the panorama that it is.'Honesty', Reality'.. let's not assign properties to it and seive itdown. Let me end by quoting the great words of Eric Cartman from South park- Myaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Ps: i have a sneaking suspicion I may have bounded off topic. Butanyways, this is what the discusion inspired in my warped brainatleast.

Tushar says

I do not understand why language is being looked at in isolation.Language does not only include the spoken words, it involvesgestures, expressions, and a body language that forms theoverall "delivery" of the lines. Even when you cannot understand whatthe words mean, you can get a hang of which part of the world it isfrom, because all languages have a typical "expression" it does nottake an expert film watcher to tell Japanese from a French line.I have recently woken up to tamil cinema and love it in its originalform. Though I do not get a single word of that language, but slowlyI am beginning to get an understanding of the `'expression''involved. And mind you, I would be the last one to cry out for help(read dubbing).Just this morning, I was seeing A Clockwork Orange, and could notunderstand the lines much, but I was not complaining since I got theessence of their expression. Later I found out(from a film site) thelanguage used was a mix of English and Russian mixed with occasionaltheatrics. Since Shakespeare was mentioned, so I would like to state the exampleof Tim Supple's adaptation of A midsummer night's dream, which wasdone recently all over the world, including Chennai, with a pan-indian cast in seven Indian languages, similar was the case with theFebruary-showcased Hamlet. Both these productions were hugesuccesses, not for their experimental use of diff languages in oneplay but for the deft execution and the sensitization of Indianresponses towards Shakespeare. Now going by your reservations againstRomeo talking in hindi, you wouldn't want to see these plays, or evenfilms like Othello, Maqbool. But like it or not, its happening allaround, and to a decent level of success too.I know that this discussion is veering to the argument of originalityvs adaptations, but this is just another of the million thingsattached with "Language" In all the Coke examples, it is more of the body language and thedemeanor of Aamir Khan that makes them a local success, if I may sayso, than the language used per se. when I look back at all thecampaigns, it is the ingenuity of the ideas and the way some localtrends have been brilliantly observed and penned by Prasoon Joshithat make the killing. And who can disregard Aamir's uniquelydistinct looks in each one of them. If you ask me, I remember hislooks more than the words he had used. But please do not interpret this as my disregard to "language" as a powerful tool. Its only thatif a thing has a universal appeal, it will register its effectirrespective of you know what. And ya, since idio mentioned of Cage's cagey accent in capt corelli,I am also reminded of John travolta's pathetic southern accent in alove song for bobby long. And talking about poor accents on screen, who can forget AngelinaJolie as Colin Farrell's hilarious mother in Alexander. If you wannaexplore the comic side of this argument, you can see the way soundwas introduced in cinema in the film Singing in the Rain, if haven'talready checked it out.

P.S. As for the complaints against my using properties/attributes forcinema, like congruity/reality/honesty, these are my personally heldand revered views and would like to apologize if I soundedgeneralizing.

Idio says

Don't even ask me why i saw any of these movies... The worst accent hazard i have ever seen on screen happens to spoutthrough the mouth of a supposedly 'French documentray film-maker' whodresses up in Skull-motif T-shirts and over-sized bermudas in theMithun-Meghna Naidu starrer 'Classic- Dance of love'. I may not recallthe exact and verbatim dialouge, but excuse the french, when the guygoes,"Shau Mau Pau gau Shau'... yup!! You better believe me or elseyou may risk a viewing... Coming a close second would be an English gentleman Johnny who walksaround carrying a metal-director in the movie "Jai maa Vaibhav Devi".Catch him trying to pronounce 'garbha' as 'gaaba'... precious. And then 'Page 3' also happens to be a cornucopia classic examples ofaccents opening the mouth wide enough to get both feet in. Theannoying puedo-highbrow tone that Bhandarkar seems to insist hischaracters spout is nausea inducing. And unlike 'Classic' and 'Jaimaa' it isn't even campy enough for a drunk night out.

Tushar says

OMG! Such deliriously insane examples! As for the proverbialquestion, I shall postpone it for the ending titles. Our films can really get nasty while trying to show yo-talkinfirangs, who are miserably handpicked from the streets or sometourist location, and made to act in the role of their lifetime forexactly 5 seconds in a Bollywood potboiler(n paid obviously inangrezo ke jamaane ke note(naqli)). Uncle Bob Cristo be pardoned forJAAI HANUMAAN…..TUUMHAARA GOD BOLTAA HAAI AUR HAWAAA MEIN UDTAA BHEEHAAI(Mr India), or worse even, in relatively lesser known B gradeflicks like Hadh Kardi Aapne, you get to see even lesser known juniorartists pretending to be African tribals with Cherry Blossom forfoundation on their wooden faces, and to prove their Africanauthenticity/ethnicity/roots/origin, all they utter is HOO HOOBAA!(bhagwaan bachaaye from those Bollywood tribal hold-up sequences! itwould put even orginal aborigines/bushmen to shame)And God only save you if you happen to catch this flick on TV calledClerk(which tops my list of all time HAM greats from The Man himself,Manoj Kumar(apparently when he made those painfully entertaininggreat Bhaarat series of films, everyone went Manoj Ko Maar! ..ok badjoke), it has all possible abuses that can be done with language onscreen.Or forget about firangs, we have glaring examples of injustice doneto our own dialects. Whenever our great stars like SRK(Chaahat,Paheli, Chamatkar) or other Khans try to play a rural guy(dehaati)from the deserts, they are unbearable(I being from the deserts too,find it a criminal offense), one finds their cross-lingual excursionswhich seem to mix some 100 dialects of UP, MP, Rajasthan n Haryanatogether, a bad joke on our diversity(examples- Ajay Devgan in Lajja- "AURAT MAIYYA HOTI HAI……, or our very own Dharam Paaji sporting aposh accent as a suave businessman(!) in bach ke rehna re baba(whichtranslates into – Don't SEE IT EVEN BY MISTAKE!)…) Rarely there havebeen some films where people have really worked on the rural nforeign accents. Unfortunately, I cant think of any at present.Probably, Senior's B's haryanvi dialect in B n B was a lil tolerable,or even Sharman Joshi's bit In Rang De Basanti. It would beinteresting to see Saif `pink t shirt' Ali as a north UP goon inOmkara though. And coming back to the proverbial, Why exactly did you see thosefilms, idio?!(the question is IRREVERSIBLE, mind you!)

Idio says

Thank you Tushar for mentioning the Manoj Kumar's priceless "Clerk'not to be confused with Kevin Smith's nerd-cool 'Clerks', which isundoubtedly the most ham-fisted movie in a ham-fisted film industrythat is Bollywood. if you have never seen the part of the movie where a 'pair ofbatteries', a 'tansistor radio' and a rousing redition of 'Kadamkadam Badhaye Jaa' help a convulsing, dying Ashok Kumar back to hisfeet and marching (oh yeah).. you are missing something! Damn thequota system. Who needs Doctors when you've got Duracell? And if youthink Manoj Kumar couldn't top that, watch 'Kalyug Ki Ramayan'(am igetting it right?) which is something like 'Swades' smashedwith 'Shaktiman'. Brilliant!! But Tushar you seem to confuse 'Kis Kis Ki Kismat'(which, for therecord, for all the 'kiss'es in the title and miss Sheravat had butone middling kiss) with Bach Ke rehna re baba. Not that it shouldmake much of a difference. And now to get self-absorbed and answer the proverbial quetion putwith 'Irrversible' panache, "Why did I watch the movie?" I just had to. Did you ever see the posters of 'Daroga Babu, I loveyou?'It had Bhojpuri superstar Manoj Tewari in a Bond pose and thenin a lil inset picture he seemed to gyrating with a thunder-thighedthing across a garden in full spring bloom. How the hell could ipiss something like that. And there was the title- Daroga Babu, Ilove you. Delirium would follow. And as for Classic, it had Mithunda reuniting with Disco dancerdirector B. Subash. I mean it's C-grade Scorsese-De Niro. And at amore priapic level, there's always the voluptious lil Meghana Naiduwho somehow always looks a million times better in the poster thanin the movie. And hey as for 'Ong bak', It's not Indonasian, It's thai and itplays in star movies or HBO nowadays. Or it may be available at yourfriendly neighborhood DVD wallah. PS: I don't know how the hell i'm posting those damn posts whichgo 'Pics'. I'm sorry about that. I feel like a zombie or that monkeyin 'Outbreak'. Sorry again.

Indian New Wave...or somethin like it!

Tushar says
How did the post leave out 'Makdi'? I accept that it was a huge fault to miss Makdee. I dont know why didit skip my mind. Possibly because Vishal Bhardwaj is The Man, he issuddenly this ultrasupercool movie magician who is churning outbrilliant cinema products. He along with Nagesh Kuknoor remind me ofHaroun and the sea of stories. they have enough ideas to keep makingmovies from their hearts for decades,unaffected by what is beingmade around them. Talking about Kukunoor, I love the small town feelin his films like Rockford, Hyderabad Blues,Teen Deewarein or evenIqbal for that matter.But one film of his that stands out positivelywould be Bollywood Calling. I mean come on now, who would cast NavinNischol as a Bollywood Idol for chrissake?!! Kukunoor has celebratedBollywood in his own little way, and its worth checking out. I likethe fact that he doesnt think twice about casting himself when hefeels he fits the part well. But I wish that he maintains the indiebeauty/element of his cinema, cus I heard he is Mumbai's new kid onthe block, which is one thing that scares me, cus when these socalled big production houses 'adopt' the un-godfathered babies(childprodigies rather), the final product looks a little doctored anddifferent from what the kid would have done otherwise. Point inperspective - RGV films and Rajat Mukherjee, Yashraj Films, and manyother prod houses.RGV's The Factory has this bevy of young talents, like Jijy Philip,Prawal Raman(Darna Mana Hai, Gayab), E Niwas(Shool), Chandan Arora(Main Madhuri Dixit..., Main Meri Patni..), Shimit Amin, VishramSaawant(D), Shriram Raghavan(who is coming up as a very goodscriptwriter), Saurabh Narang etc. But lately, there has been adecline in both the frequency and the quality of Factory products,which hints at a possible "doctoring". Recently, I saw Sajid Khanpublicly disowning the part he has filmed in the upcoming DarnaZaroori Hai, saying that noone knows what happens to a Factory filmin the post-production except Mr. Verma.Coming back to Vishal, he has also made another brilliant filmapparently, called The Blue Umbrella/Chhatri Chor starring PankajKapoor and the Makdee/Iqbal girl.Wouldn't it be simply awesome to seeseasoned Kapoor in a Ruskin Bond styled fairy-tale!I have Maqbool and keep revisiting it once a month or so, to discovera new thing everytime. I consider it a contemporary masterpiece. Itake one actor at a time and focus on him only everytime I see itnow. and I dont know if anyone has noticed but dont you think PiyushMishra Rocks! He was there in Dil Se also(Maniratnam has this knackof using the finest theatre talents across the country), and has alsodone the lyrics and dialogues for Black Friday(another new wave guy -Anurag Kasyap).I hope Vishal Bhardwaj maintains the same level of cinematic finessein his upcoming Omkara/Issak, though I fear that due to the presenceof Kareena Kapoor(!!) and Saif 'Cyrus' Ali(!!). I hope I am provedwrong.


Idio says

New UNDER-RATED wave directors I'm hoping will deliver (bollywood)1) Chandan Arora:- He might have served up something diabeticallysacchrine with his debut "Main Madhuri..." and his quaintly brilliantsophomore effort "main, meri Patni.." was a tad flawed but his small-town sensibilities, coupled with an unusually perceptive mind, andunerring eye for the little hues and nuances of life warrants toinvoke a kind of hope in me that he is indeed the true successor ofthe sai paranjpe-basu chatterjee-hrishikesh mukherjee kind of middle-of-the-road movie. 2) Shashanka Ghosh:- In a perfect world his movie would have beencritically applauded. In a perfect world, his movie would haveinspired a cult following. In a perfect world, he would still bemaking movies. Shashanka Ghosh, India's true geekboy, served up thekitano-tarantino-coen-rgv inspired piece of bollywood odditytitled "Waisa Bhi Hota hain Part-2" (now remembered as the "Allah keBandhe" movie.) From the tongue-in-cheek list of inspirations at thestart to the quirky script to the rip-roaring dialogue to liltingmusic and spot-on performances, it was firmly in that category of amovie which is termed "Dil se banaayi". Flawed, yes.. fun.. yes, yes,yes, yes, YES!!!!!!!!


Girish says
I don't think it is Bhardwaj and Kukunoor, I think itis Manish Jha, Anup Kurian and Rajat Kapoor. Nagesh Kuknoor, I really loved Hydrabad Blues a veryhonest and a fresh breeze it was. He came across as agreat promise, but things he made after that... oneafter the other from the mad crazy boy who directed anequaly mad film like HB, he progressed to aprofessional who start making perfect films, finallyit reached a lifeless/cleshe filled, underdog winningstory of 'Iqbal'... i give up. Same with Vishal Bhardwaj Makdie was nice, at-leastthe first half. But Maqbool was a well craftedbollywood formula on poor already over abbusedMacbeth, I couldn't even sit through the whole thing,because of the fake settings and forced performances,sorry i can't stand another gangster clone of Brando,cool, old, heart of gold, broken voice,.......i havebeen seeing it from Nayakan onwards. Come on! weshould have a better own imagination. Now two guys show some promise are Manish Jha(Mathrubhoomi) and Anup Kurian (Manasarovar) both madeonly one film so far, but both are nice, hope theycontinue what they have started. finally Rajat Kapoor is one exception, movie aftermovie he is growing, i really liked Mixed doubles, forits honesty and integrity. i feel he is a better bettoday than Bhardwaj and Kuknoor.

Tushar says
there is also Hansal Mehta,who might have done a crappy job of copyingAmerican Pie in his ye kya ho raha hai(i loved the songs), but his workwas good in dil pe mat le yaar(http://www.uiowa.edu/~incinema/dilpemat.html)(don't be tempted to complete the line a la hyderabad blues :-)) and chhal. you are right about shashanka ghosh,idio. i saw his interview onchannel v long time ago, and he was shamelessly accepting of all hisinfluences, which i think was pretty cool in the world of apoorva man-on-fire lakhia, sanjay i-havent-even-heard-of-that-movie gupta, vikramcopycat-who-copycat-i-indianize-western-themes-as-suggested-by-uncle-mahesh bhatt, anurag hitfilms-are-an-extension-of-flop-tv-showsbasu,mohit one-pakistani-hit-pop-song-plus-one-serial-kisser-make-eleven-crores-on-box-office suri etc etc. i havent seen mansarovar or matrubhoomi, so cant comment on girish'sbets. but i have heard a lot about both these films, and would love tosee them, especially mansarovar.then there is also mahesh mathai, who direted lucky ali music videos,made lots of ads and a film called bhopal express.and how can we leave out anurag kashyap out of this talk. he showedimmense promise in black friday, and he is a multi-faceted talent infields of script, dialogues(he has also translated dialogues for filmslike water). we should also consider Saurabh shukla,neeraj vohra,makrand deshpande, who contribute in umpteen aspects of film making,more than meets the eye kinda thing. few more additions to this list could be aditya bhattacharya(directorof raakh, senso unico, music videos like sagarika's bye bye baby, canbe also seen kurta clad in hazaaron khwaayishen aisi), ram madhvani(lets talk), shoojit sarkar(yahaan), manu rewal(chai pani etc.),

Idio says
Did anyone get to watch Hansal Mehta's "Anjaan"? I used to keep awatch out for his movies until he degraded himself and all his pastwith "Yeh Kya Ho Raha Hain". It's almost incongruous to even thinkthat the same mind behind the brilliant "Dil Pe Mat Le Yaar" concievedthe pile of manure that was "Yeh Kya Ho..". Shoojith Sarkar while a fine director is certainly not under-rated.Nor is Anurag Kashyap. Unlucky yes.. unluckiest probably but under-rated No. But Saurabh Shukla. I'm convinced of his talent (Thebrilliant star bestsellers episode- the Piano.)But Mudda- The issueand Chehra (-the face, is it?)?? And Neeraj Vohra?? (He's the one whosupplies the dialogue to Priyadarshan movies!) Makrand Deshpande.. Ilove his plays, his acting but that movie of his Hanan- self-absorbedtill it became almost unbearable. he would do good to have his ego iscontrol. Manish Jha... well, he certainly has promise. I'll concede that. ButI'm certainly not expecting the next great Indian movie from him.Rajat kapoor isn't under-rated anymore. Raghu Romeo is a tad over-rated though. But he made up well and good and more with "MixedDoubles". Anup Kurian.. now here's a guy I'm looking at. "Manasarovar" was a onea one-of-a-kind movie. Strong writing, eye for detail and absurdityand a search for the profound. Another director I'm pinning my hopes on- Kabir Kaushik of "Sehar"fame. It may have lacked the style and panache of 'Sarkar' but interms of substance, it scored. Even while being deeply entrenched inthe standard cop-underworld movie milieu, he makes a heartfelt attemptto move away from cliches. Okay,. the scenes featuring Mahima wereplain hokum but if the power and urgency of the brilliant climax wasany indication, he's a talent to watch out for. And just as I thought I'd post it another name comes to mind-Bappaditya Roy.. the mind behind the unfairly unseen "Sau Jhooth Eksach". While "page 3" with it's unsubtle and jarring bourgeous feel-good scheme of 'rich-people-screw-everything-that-moves"sentimentality manged to go all the way to the National Awards, Roy'sbrilliiant, nuanced and brave effort based on the play "An InspectorCalls". One of the most visually textured films to come out of theindustry examined the very issues that "Page 3" clanged on cymbals,very very surgically. Instead of being a simplistic moral diatribe,the movie was a meditation.

CHILDREN FILMS

Arky says

I grew up watching beautiful children films on Doordarshan in hindiand other regional languages. Most of the film were made by filmsdivision GOI. Perhaps that was the golden age of indian film forchildren. There were movie with 'golden wand (chaddi), the story ofrustic kid with fair of murals which draws on walls in Bombay and dadamuni (Ashok kumar) searching for him. Another film about two circusmidget clowns who run away on small motorcycle. And the girl whodrowns in the seas because she want to meet the angel (pari) who livesbenign the waves and makes her mom well again. Perhaps you willremember some of the movies I mentioned here. Most of the film wereTechnicolor or made in 80's. Until few year ago there some good movies, I think Mani Rathnambeautiful story of the kid who hates to wake up in the morning for andruns away to meet his grandpa in the village. His recurrent dream istrying to stop a giant clock from striking Six'O clock, it always doesand he has wake up for school. Now, not many such good movie are produced. Would our next generationare destined to watching Hollywood or foreign children movies. Or theproblem is with the children who wouldn't like to see movies made inregional languages or without bang bang or great CGI.

Tushar says

This film that you are referring to is the acclaimed Malayalam movie,Abhayam(1993). The film and the child actor became so famous that ithad numerous reruns back in those DD days. The coolest thing wasthat i didnt know that it was a Malayalam movie until recently afriend saw it in a children film festival held on Bal Diwas in cubbonpark It is really an issue of concern that the only place that we get tohear about children films is the once-in-an-year festival where kidsare literally stuffed in to complete the juvenile attendance.I can recall seeing lots of interesting films on kids in the late80's and 90's. Who can forget Chhota Chetan, Anjali(maniratnam'smasterpiece), Halo(an MTV version of alice in mumbai/baby's day out).I don't know whether to call this a problem with the kids or theadults who are serving them a CGI world. But still I believe ifsomething engrossing comes, even if it sticks to the conventionalschool of "fantasy" children films, it WILL win over all thesenseless fabricated fantasy churned out in the name of animation.I was searching for a good indian animation cd for my 3 yr oldnephew, somethin on the lines of panchatantra, jaatak tales,mahabharata, tenalirama....and all I could find under "quality"animation was an age old Jungle Book and the current favoriteHanuman. though Hanuman was a good effort,there are miles that can becovered in the level of quality of animation and sound.hoping for better children cinema

Idio says

How did the post leave out 'Makdi'? Granted it was far from fabulousbut it was one of those old-school children's movies that actuallymanaged to make a mark both critically and comercially. The childrensmelled of the rustic earth and sky and not strawberry candyflossand who can forget two most deliciously delirious performances-Shabana Azmi and Makarand Deshpande. One would think that it wouldusher in a new wave but to name the children's films that came outrecently is equivalent to stuffing your finger down your throat andspewing yesterdays stale sambhaar out. (Vaah! Life Ho toh Aisi!Anyone?) Since Hollywood was mentioned, I saw something yestersay which leftme with the feeling that there is hope yet... Zathura. Minimum onCGI, good believable performances, scary monsters, space fanstasy...it wasn't great but it was good solid fun without ever gettingcloying and condescending and resorting to jokes pertaining tonefarious bodily fluids and gases. (Scoody Doo?????????)

Sarvesh says

Somebody please tell about this one too...
Its in Hindi, about 4 boys who go on a month long cycling trip after their X class and have quite a bit of adventure, with one of their bikes getting stolen and they having to work to buy another and so on...
I watched it, I think around 15 years back, on DD of course.

Fagun says
Malayalam superstar Mamooty has played a significant role in that movie. But, alas! dont know the name of that movie.

If we are talking about children's movies, we cannot forget Satyajit Ray and his great father Sukumar Ray. I am a gujarati, although I simply learnt bengali to read Satyajit ray's feluda and photikchand.

Gopi Gaen Baagha Baen and movie about feluda (again! forgot the name!) are few of the best children movies so far.

There was one more movie called Naani ma - starring Leela Mishra (the famous Mausi ji frm sholay). Then Uran chhu - movie about two dwarf clowns.

There was one more film about a scientist and a cop. A scientist goes back in his childhood after havin his own invented medicine, cos one of his enemy changes the formula but soon after he finds the remedy for this. He along with his cop friend - they turn into their childhood after havin that medicine and do some miraculous feats - to catch a drug mafia who is evenutally a scientist working with our hero scientist - who changes the formula of medicine.

Main characters played by suresh chatwal, anup kumar and rajendra nath in negative role.

JARHEAD

Arky says
"Every war is different and yet every war is the same" -- Ending lines of the movie 'Jarhead'(2005) Few a months now I resisted watching this movie coz I thought it tosimilar to last years 'Gunner Palace'(2004) but after course of badhollywood movies like 'Benchwarmers'(2006), 'Ice Age 2: The meltdown'(2006) I was prepared for anything. The movie 'Jarhead' based onformer U.S. Marine Anthony Swofford's book of the same is bigsurprise. There is little or almost no war in the movie, it deals with the war that's within. Jarhead is slang for a US marine. http://www.jarheadmovie.comhttp://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418763/


Tushar says
I saw it long back just for one reason- SamMendes, who is already hailed as one of the top 5 contemporary USdirectors. he is a master craftsmen. its hard for me to decide if ilike jarhead more or Road to Perdition. I heard that Mendes took twodays just for blocking(practise of making the camera familiar tothe 'space' and the actors before the actual shooting begins). Iabsoltely loved the way music has been used in the film. Though thefilm as a whole is not very impressive but it somehow makes thetransition from being a pointlessness-of-war-depicting movie to adeeper study of the contemporary youth and the choices they make. This film is hailed for being a real-insiders-perspective on the waras it happens on dusty terrains and how it ends up being "justanother job" rather than the largely given nobility a la "for thelove of your country". their is satire in the film, and lots of it todrive the i-swear-by-j-p-dutta kinda people mad to the limits ofinsanity just like the protagonist of Jarhead. but at the same time,the film does not take any pro- or anti-war stance. Jake Gyllenhal isbrilliant, so are Peter Saarsgard and Jamie Foxx. Watch it, but don'tkeep it with your other war DVD's like Platoon, Full Metal Jacket,Thin Red Line, or even Apocalypse Now....they might not like thecompany.

Arky says
There is scene in the film wherein the combatants are handed overpills for an nerve-gas side-effects or something and they are asked tosign some release forms on possible medical side-effects in future.While the marines are arguing about it, the staff Sargent say's "Do itfor your country, M***F***". They go thro the pill popping drill andspit 'em out as the Sargent turns his back. The main protagonist (Jake Gyllenhal) is too good, I do not know whythe film was reminding of novel Catch 22. Was it the insanity orloneliness of a solider or the image of naked man in the tree whom thewhole battalion swear that they seen during the parade. Nope, This is movie is not for war movie collection. Clips from the'Apocalypse Now' are used in this film, but they are so well editedthat it gives the tempo of war fervor to the new heights. Thesoundtrack of film is nice, I scarcely realized it during the film.



Tushar says
yes, it does remind you of catch-22 for the irony, and forrest gumpfor a anyman's persective on war. weren't you reminded of "yes, drillsergeant" of gump when u saw the pills scene. my favorite scenes would be the ones where troy says, f*** politics,we are here, all the rest is bu******, when scoff speaks to hisgirlfriend, the "shoot me" scene, and the one where all are watchinga porn film and a strange discovery is made.and also the last scenewith the vietnam vet is briliiant. this movie also nails the point that once a marine, always a marine.the wars get over but switching back to the normal "civilian" life isdamn tough. i also liked the objectivity with which an issue likewar/defense was handled. This is what an ex-marine has to say abouthow close the film is to reality.."A movie which portrays the Marine grunt for what he is... certainlyno angel, but the absolute backbone of American military toughness.The barracks and field life portrayed in this movie is perhaps themost accurate portrait Hollywood has produced."all this brings me to a question. When will we get to see a good Indian War film??

Old Doordarshan Serials

Arky says
Perhaps I would like to do a bit speculation here and it wouldtelvision series would have (may be more) demand than the featurelength movies. For example if someone complies the whole series of "Bharat Ek Khoj","Malgudi Days" , "Waglla Ki Duniya" on DVD (No, they won't fit intoCD's) they would fly out of shelf's like pav and vadda. (Bombay Pav ofcourse) Tushar saysya you are right, in fact some of the works can be complied. cus'while researchin once on mirza ghalib for a play, i found the entireGhalib series compiled in two sets of 3 cd's each, covering the teleseries of 18 episodes. i also have the entire collection of flop show(!).you would be amazed to see the interest and knowledge of people aboutold series that used to come on our good ol' doordarshan. there is anonline community on orkut that i am a part of, called "Olddoordarshan serials", u can check it out (u might require a gmail idto view/register/join, m not sure about that) http://www.orkut.com/Community.aspx?cmm=486561 Description:This community is dedicated to the truly excellent works of art thatused to be on air in early DD days -Malgudi days, Mirza Ghalib, Yeh jo hai zindagi, Trishna, Intezaar,Bharat ek khoj, Mujarim Hazir, Yugantaar, Katha saagar, Kab takpukaroon, Hum log, Shrikaant, Byomkesh Bakshi, Karamchand, Neem kaped, Apna Apna Aasmaan... After some really nice conversations here, we have some reallyexhaustive lists of serials and ads, or shall I say memories, withus. In any case they are worth boasting off, so here they are:http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=486561&tid=12601029http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=486561&tid=2562950 i simply used to trip on byomkesh bakshi, karamchand, mungerilal nother tele serials like tamas and discovery of india.

Arky says
Cool, Really the quality of early DD serial still stands in the age ofcable t TV and tear jerking soaps. BTW anyone got 'Dekh Bhai Dekh' ???. If I remember correctly Mirz Ghalib was created by Gulzar and Shah whotook really long sabbatical to do this project. Perhaps in thetwilight years of parallel cinema DD gave a great chance for all thesedirectors to make serial based on works of India writers in English(Malgudi, Wagle ki Duniya, O' Henry, Somerset 's shorts stories),Hindi ( Chand, Meti ki rang) and regional language writers (Amaravatiki katha). DD's another not well-know contribution to film was the it was one whostarted the trend of dubbing international movies into hindi andregional languages. During the early days of Indo-Russian Friendship alot of children movies came in hindi and some European movies alsowere either dubbed or played late in nights. Another hallmark was the made-for-tv films that were dubbed and shownas serials. I remember watching serial about prison escape from Nazigermany, the movies like Godfather which used come is parts. AnJapanese serial 'Oshi' of course. If I compare the number of channels we have today and kind ofprogramming that we get to see. I'll prefer the early DD any givenday. (Yeah, I wish for the joy of single channel TV we used to watch justthe static after the end of transmission at the end of day)

Tushar says
ohh...i am getting all nostalgic today...talk about programming, andcreative innovation, in you have all the crap these days in the nameof daily soaps that have polluted the very virgin image of televisionand the joy of seein those rainbow colored screens after a longstatic. the images in my mind go back to watchin spiderman on oldthat B&W TV.DD had at its helm in those days in mandi house, a lot many talentedpeople, which later joined the commercial path of media and films,for reasons best known to them.but call it magic of yore or plane coincidences that one afteranother, that age churned out gems of tele products. and though yearshave passed, the fact that we still can recall so many of their namesjust goes to prove their ingenuity and uniqueness.some more that i loved are.. mr. yogi, wagle ki duniya, kakkajikahin, ye jo hai zindagi, neem ka ped, buniyad, nukkad, circus,fauji, checkov ki duniya, tehkikat,kile ka rahasya, surabhi, aisa bhihota hai....

Arky says
I can still hear the continuous beep that used to accompany therainbow colors then the screen will change and the the Indianpopulation counter would for a few minutes LOL. Darn!! They showed population counter (it was called 'Jana sankyavishlayshan') when nobody was awake. Perhaps the theatre and one parallel movie a year satisfied thecreative energy of the great actors like Om Puri. But it was theserials that keep their house fires burning. (I vainly hoped that the advent of cable channels would bring moreprogramming time and more beautiful artists but I dead wrong.) The irony of life they say comes with a wry dark humor.., today's socalled new age movies are now funded by music channels and mediacompanies that make films that look-like actors just stepped to take abreak from VJing and act a little and __Brag__ about the being thesuccessors of parallel cinema. Sorry for being cynical but the nostalgia is too over-powering andfrustrating.

Malavika says
yup who can forget the old days, when DD ruled. it was like a daily ritual, after dinner the whole family would sit in front of the television and watch serials. first would be drama, then comedy, after that thriller and the day would end with surabhi which would be followed by the news with pranoy roy. yup those were the days. today even though most of the shows on tv are about family non of seem to have that same magic which DD had then of bringing the entire family together to sit and enjoy some beautiful shows.
and as they say old is gold, most of the serails are making a come back. sab tv is playing dekh bhai dekh (i can never seem to get tired of that show, unlike some of the more recent comedy serrials) and pogo airs malgudi days every weeknight at 8.


Idio says
How come 'Stoneboy' slipped out of the collectiveconsciousness? 'Stoneboy' for which I refused to go for a Sundaypicnic until my father went down on his knees and promised me thathe would record the episode for me on our lil VHS. I remember comingback from the picnic, pants torn in the middle from sliding down asloping stone wall and running straight home chating,"Stoneboy,Stoneboy..." As we speak of 'Dekh Bahi Dekh', how can we forget the deliriouslyfunny "Filmi Chakkar'. Okay so it played on Zee TV but that doesn'ttake any merit off. Just Remembering Ratna Pathak doing theMadhubala routine in "Pyaar Kiya to Darna Kya" is enough to spill myguts out in maniac laughter. Or Satish Shah's delightful RajeshKhana shtick. And as if to metaphorize the bastardization of the times, that verydelightful pair now features in a crass, unfunny sitcom titled, veryimaginatively "Sarabhai v/s sarabhai". (who the hell thinks Rosheshis funny? Squeaky voice and poker face make not a funny man) And hey.. what about "Mr. Yogi". Post-mordern with a capital "P".Ahead of it's time. And there was also the quaint lil sci-fi "Sigma"which was Star Trek mashed with Star Wars mashed with he-man. Butcompared to the likes of 'Shaktiman' and his arch nemesis "KekdaMan" it was a certifiable classic.

Arky says
Guilty, Guilty on all counts. I forgot about 'Stoneboy'. Pardons Senor;o) Well, I reckon Master Manjunath essayed the role of 'Stoneboy'. Isimple loved the serial, but I was bit grown-up already and I sadlyhated the fact that stoneboy won't come back to life and play with mebecause you have to be child to do so. Meanwhile I was watch 'Kasish' the love story about the TV actressAnjali Thewary and the shy director who loves her but can not express.And also 'Gul Gulsan Guljar' which tell the tale of old man on DalLake set the trouble times of Kashmir, which I could associate with. Hey, early Zee TV and Sony was a class act apart. But sadly I alreadyto left college and all night computer gaming by this time and Imissed most of the fun. Mr. Yogi died couple of years due to a cardiac arrest. I felt realbad. For me he will always be dubious Mr.Yogi. BTW do you remember howMr.Yogi serial end. He falls in love and marries the daughter of OmPuri who plays the narrator of exploits of Mr.Yogi Classic Classic. How Dare You Idio to even use of 'Sigma' and 'Shaktiman' in a samesentence without puking. (Arky puke's all over his keyboard) The greatest age of Sci-fiction series on DD had star like 'Sigma' and'Indradanush'. Perhaps my dreaming dabbling in computing started withthat serial where kids build a computer to do their homework. Thefirst episode of Indradanush starts with kid dreaming about hiscomputer coming alive, he wakes up to the sound of alarm clock andsteals an old digital clock to as the last component to theirpedal-powered (bublegum chewing kid_) computer. The greatest episode of Sigma was when they come down to earth andthere was a shot from Mr.India Sridev 'Miss Hawa Hawaii' in that show.And remember the episode of pulsating boab's that attach themselvesthe crew of sigma. ;o) Wow, that serial was a 10 years ahead of times. About 10 or 15 years later I watch the crapy 'Captian Vyom' on DDwhich was no where near the 'Sigma' even with development of CGI, hehad graphics that looked right out of 80's sega 16bit graphics games. I pray someday we all would get a chance of seeing them once againwithout taking aid of time-machine ;o)

PIRACY:Is it legal?Is it moral?

Vijay says:
This question has been naging me for quite sometime now. Is it Legal and moral to use pirated CD's and DVD's?
movie making is a high risk business. A lot of effort and money goes into the making of the movie. Sometimes a few thousnads, sometimes a few lakhs or crores. I feel it must be quite painful for filmmakers to see their films being sold on footpaths and video parlors.
THere is the Audio and Video Piracy of Films (Prohibhition and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 2005, but i believe the enforcemnet is not being properly done.
In certain states like Tamil Nadu it is a crime coming under the purview of Goonda Act. What do you all have to say? Is it good encouraging or using pirated discs? I have been using them and also renting pirated cds, but am in a big dilemma now..


Malavika says
for me the whole thing about piracy is more about the moral issue than anything else and with piracted cd's its really a risk cause you don't know how the print is and the subtitles are usually rubbish and the cd usualy starts to get stuck after you have watched it some two three times the sound is also bad, its basically crap. you may be paying less for these cd's but they are not the original and that knowledge itself makes that cd worthless. i would any day pay more and buy the original, if i can't afford it or find it then i will wait till i can. a cd collection is like any other collection, you would not buy a fake van gogh painting and add it to your collection just because you couldn't get the original.
Idio saysThe basic reason I would purchase and watch a pirated movie is if i was sure I would never be able to lay hands on it legally. The films i seek to build my collection off are rarely available in your neighborhood Planet M/Music World. And Habitat like i've mentioned before is not worth the infinite void in my pockets.



Arky says
Don't believe all that shown on television and massmedia. Piracy isn't really a problem but its rather asolution for the lack of affordable movies on themarket. The VHS Home Theatre didn't kill the theatre businessor affect the movie margins (if you want I'll provideyou the stat's). We do watch movies from the DVD/CDrental walla on the street corner. But we do go tomall's and buy the original DVD9 movie's for ourcollection and let me tell you the joy of watchingmovies in big screen is still magical. Piracy is what's done on high sea's.Its really badphrase to apply to the unauthorized audio videocopying. We (Free Software activists and hackers) arequite open in our fight against movie and musicindustry on this issue. Analogy from Music Industry--------------------------- Few years ago, the music industry was making lot ofnoise over Napster and p2p how bad it is to downloadand listen to mp3 songs. But at the end of the yearthe stat's showed that the sell's of original diskreally went up instead of south. The reason behind itwas people went to shops to buy album's in Audio CDformat because they liked what they heard from mp3downloads. Note: The audio quality of Audio CDDA is extremelygood when played on high-end hi-fi systems. Themp3,ogg vorbis removes lot of audio songs that are notheard to human ear to cut out the file size. Lessons from Graceful Dead--------------------------Few years ago I attended a talk by John Perry Barlowin IISc Bangalore. he is the song writer for the band'The Graceful Dead', the coiner of word 'Cyberspace'and EFF activist. Am para-phrasing his words here. During the great old days of graceful dead, they(theband) used to regularly throw out the guy's who usedto bring recording material to the shows and swapaudio tapes with friends. For once they gave up andallowed all the guys to come and record because anywaythe audio quality is no where on par with officialLp's and lo' this piracy of recorded tapes helped theminstead of harming the band album sales.

Idio says
The issue of piracy is a very moral and ethical one. The firstinstance of piracy can be noted in the sagely old Indian texts wherethere is an instance of the Lord Brahma sleeping with his mouth openand all the knowledge of the world seeping out of that open orificeonly to be gathered by the evil ears of a horse-headed demon.Justice was swift in those days when there were no governments andno rulers. God's themselves incarnated themselves on the land andquickly slayed the 'pirates'. But let us here observe impartially and question courageously boththe Gods and existence as as a whole as we delve deeper into thetopical topic of 'piracy'. Was it right for the Gods to slay the demon? Was it really thedemon's fault? The demon having access to much privelaged information certainlycouldn't resist the curiosity. If the God's were a bit more clementand distributed information more freely and widely and made it moreaccessible would the demon be forced to 'pirate' it. I think the issue is with supply. We must look upon Buddha andMahavira who preached God's language in the tongues of the poor.What matters is that the matter cuts through the mass of red-tapismand reaches the masses. But then, there is also the issue that studios spend millions ofdollars in making and marketing the movies. Doesn't piracy seemunfair? But i beg you recollect the massacres and mass genocides beingcommited all over the world. Are they fair? Look, closer home, atthe Indian constitution. It is blatantly unfair to sexualminorities. Unfairness therefore is a part and parcel of the world. Someonesomewhere recieves and someone somewhere loses.



Vijay says
I agree with Malavika that it's worth the wait for a good orginal DVD/CD that can be either bought or rented out. Recently i saw 'Being Cyrus', which i got from the local CD walla and there were so many scene cuts although the print was good, that i really got pissed off seeing my money and time go waste. I guess i have more or less made up my mind of not renting or buying pirated movies. It's a waste of time , money and beyond a point it really starts pricking your conscience.
Piracy maybe a solution for lack of affordable movies as arky had written, but it's still not worth it in comparison to the orginal. Yup, do give me the sat's pls. On the other hand i guess it is the government's duty to cut the entertainment tax to the lowest possible limits or atleast make movies tax free (viewing, renting or buying), then perehaps it will become more affordable to all sections of society who may be intersted in movies, and this i think is really really important. Although i feel it may be quite difficult to implement such a rule....well what the heck it all boils down to political will at the end of the day.
As for idio's post, you seem to be justifying a good with a bad. You either say its bad and give your reasons or say its good and give youir reasons....dont take the easy middle path on this like the Budha!! Your stand has to be clear. The issue i guess is not with supply but 'affordability'. But then at the end of your post you made it clear although not directly that piracy is for the better.
"Look, closer home, at the Indian constitution. It is blatantly unfair to sexual minorities."
What is the Indian Constitution got to do here?? It's not unfair i think you interpreted it in the wrong way.
"Someone somewhere recieves and someone somewhere loses."...
When that someone is you, it really starts to hurt...
Thanks guys for your replies, at the end of the day i believe a little more introspection on the pros and cons may help me to come to a better conclusion.


Saugata says
The actual reason why piracy is supported is not because of the quality etc. The reason is that someone somewhere is forcing us to pay an amount which we think is not worth paying.No i would not steal a Van gogh since it costs a lot. but no body is stopping me from viewing a van gogh. We can pay a min amount in any museum it is kept in and can see a painting. In the same vein how can someone stop me from listening to a song because i dont have the amount that he or she is demanding? what right does a person have to stop me from from watching a good movie because i dont have the dollars to pay for it? well till the time that u r forcing me to pay exorbitant sums i will find a way around, which wont cost me anything. i am pretty sure i will stop doing this the day u stop forcing me to pay. thats it. thats the equation.And i agree with Arky.... its not "PIRACY".


Idio says
RELEASE QUALITY MOVIES IN THEATRES.
If you dont want me to go fishing for Woody Allen's Match Point in theseedy depths of movie piracy, I want the movie in the neighborhoodtheatre. And no, i'm not going to wait till 2076 for that. If not asimultaneous release, a month late will do but sometimes it getsridiculous. And when i say foreign cinema I don't mean that straight-out-of-a-chinsese menucard sounding Tom Yum Goong (though i willconfess enjoying it. Tony Jaa can kick ass and How!)I want my Amoldvar,I want my Duk, I want my Imamura, I want my Kitano... hell, just giveme an english-speaking Allen on time and I'll say what a good start itwas.

Arky says
Well, I had asked around to find the experience ofsome of my friends about buying original DVD and CD's.Perhaps these support Saugata's point. It seems that single DVD movie cost no less thanRs.800/- when brought in mall's. The same DVD (whichis ripped and re-encoded) and sold for Rs.80/90- inNational market. And there is yet another side to this story. Do you remember the companies like 'Bambino' and'Samaro' others from Bombay that used to sell oldhindi movies in VHS format. These guy's have the filmrights for home video screening for old hindi hitslike 'Bombay to Goa', 'Padosan' etc. They havereleased these movies at Rs.65/- (MRP) for 2 CD Hindimovies. And if you go to SP road and ask for these movies theywill give you the original VCD's at Rs.45/- and say'Arre Sire, take this original CD for pirated CDprice'. Movies can be affordable if they are not chargedastronomical sums. Malavika says
so you will basically accpet anything and everything without going through the slightest trouble to try and change it.
just because the world is filled with unfairness doesn't mean that you have to just take it as it is. you have been given a choice, make it. don't just sit back and say that the world is filled with unfairness and there is nothing i can do about it so i will just go along with the flow of things, be it piracy or the state of affairs in our country or the world.

i did not say that you should not rent a movie and watch it. how are you going to buy a movie if you haven't watched it first. by all means rent as many movies as you like, i honestly think video libraries are the best thing that ever happened. and yes i do agree that dvd's are quite expensive and entertainment tax is very high in this country and all that but just think about it, why would you want to buy a movie cd. only if you loved the movie so much that you feel that you just have to posses it. you would not buy a cd (even pirated for that matter) if you didn't like the movie. cause you want to collect the best. then why would you sacrifice on quality. i understand that dvd's tend to be very expensive but some vcd's are quite reasonable they may not be as cheap as 75 Rs but you do get them for less then 200 Rs and thats not all that bad considering the fact that we do tend spend money on much more futile things like 45 Rs coffees.
its just a thought


Saugata says
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that video libraries in most places do keep pirated cds. If you watch the first screenshot of the movie its from the FBI warning you against the very thing you are trying to do. So you would be supporting piracy neway...Basically what i can understand from this is that you will support piracy by watching this cd for 15 bucks. then you will go ahead and buy it if you like it. if you dont.... thats it. you spend just 15 bucks for a movie which would have cost you 100 bucks to legally watch it.... is that supporting piracy or not? what does your conscience say?

Suraj says
I am new to the group. Well i do have a pirated movies but idisagree with a few views. The song or movie is made with so much ofeffort and the person who spends so much money on it will never beencouraged to make anything new if the person doesnt get profited byit. By resorting to piracy we are just not helping the movie / musicindustry that we love so much to grow.If we worked hard on an invention, patent it. Then we come to knowtat someother person just stole it and uses it. Wudnt we feel bad about it?

Saugata says
This turns out to be more fun than i had expected.--------The song or movie is made with so much of effort and the person who spends so much money on it will never be encouraged to make anything new if the person doesnt get profited by it. By resorting to piracy we are just not helping the movie / music industry that we love so much to grow.-------------------So do u mean to say that if I am unable to buy the cd/dvd because of the prohibitve cost, and it can only be seen by rich guys who can, we will be helping the industry to grow and art to flourish?


Vijay says
PIRACY: LOOKING FOR CONCRETE SOLUTIONS
I have a few suggestions for overcoming the piracy problem. Since places like Habitat costs quite a lot for renting out CD's/DVD's and buying originals is also out of question as it is very costly and pirated one's being illegal and at times having problems of picture and sound clarity. This is what can be done.

BFS create a separate fund for building up an original DVD/VCD collection. Members can then rent out CD's/DVD's they like for a nominal charge. The income from renting out discs can go back to the fund. But how then is the fund money to be collected in the first place?

1. Members with big wallets can donate/contribute to the fund.

2. BFS approach corporate companies to donate/contribute to the fund. I am sure there are enough corporate entities like Infosys, Wipro, and TCS etc that can be approached. What then will be the advantage to these companies if they were to sponsor. Well, we can publish their contributions in the magazine `Deep Focus', also add the bit of info, that they have contributed to our fund whenever mails are sent to all members or non-members about an upcoming screening. We can also put up flash posters or banners of the respective companies at the screening venue (BFS office or elsewhere). It will all depend upon how effectively we are able to convince a company to donate which will in turn determine to what extent the company will loosen its purse. Most big companies earmark a bit of their funds for social causes aptly calling it `corporate social responsibility'.

3. Approach the state or central govt. in donating to our fund. (I am quite skeptical about this, but I feel it can be given a try)

4. Approach wealthy filmmakers in India or abroad to donate/contribute to our fund. Again their contributions/donations can be mentioned in `Deep Focus'.

5. Approach filmy magazines and newspapers to contribute/donate. Magazines like Filmfare, Stardust, and so on can be approached.

6. If we still lack funds to build a decent and respectable collection or library of CD's/DVD's we can join hands with `Collective Chaos' in creating a unified fund and library. When we are united our resources will be more and a really good collection can be built. We maybe two film societies vying with each other for publicity and members but these are common grounds where we can join hands, that is the fight against piracy. Oh, I almost forgot `Suchitra Film Society'. That makes it three of us, right!!

I know it is going to be really, really tough to do away with screening pirated movies but a start has to be made someday. And the time is now and today. We can gradually and slowly eliminate the need for pirated discs as our funds grow. What more we can even rent it out to other film societies or groups interested in screening the movies in our collection.

We should be individually and collectively looking at finding a concrete solution to this problem of piracy. At the end of the day it will only be beneficial to us. The start maybe slow, but I am sure that with the kind of ever increasing publicity that we are getting coupled with a rich history of 30+ years the creation of a fund should go smoothly. Perhaps, I may have gone a wee bit overboard in my childish enthusiasm but I strongly feel, that if not in the immediate future, atleast in the coming months or latest by next year a fund can be created. It's high time that we evolved out of our closeted mindsets of `chalta hai' attitude and stop cribbing that we can't do anything. What's your view??

Idio says
When Sanjay Gupta photocopies the holiest of movies, he's glorifiedas 'a cutting edge' film-maker. The Times of India justifies hisactions by saying "so what? nobody's watched the original." Taxi no.9211 copies of the most urban, urgent and topical ofthrillers "Changing Lanes" and is given a rousing criticalwelcome. "Salaam Namaste" and "Dhoom" copies selected scenes anddialouges in a style which I would like to term "the new-ageBollywood intellectual theft". As does 'Bluffmaster'. How manymovies have done a quick cheap budget take on the 'Matrix' scenes? When we talk about 'piracy' why limit ourselves to CDs? Why notintellectual piracy? Give me one good reason why I shouldn't watchany of the above movies on a pirated CD? Of course, you can give me ahundred good reasons on why i have to watch them at all. If Sanjay Gupta really wanted to display his 'tribute' to KoreanFilms, he could have taken over the distribution rights of the moviesand released them in India. But instead he behaves in precisely themanner of the seedy Chinese movie pirates and perhaps even worse,with a phony mask of cinema auteurism. Atleast the Chinese guys arein terms with thier illegality. That;s more than what can be said forsome Bollywood diretors/producers. Hell, some movies just deserve to be pirated.

Tushar says
Talking about piracy, i advocate buying original cd's as much as i canafford and moreover, if the film is worth it, and i am willing to makemyself a little poor(heck! m anyways back to the streets at the end ofevery month!). now this point might be contentious 'cus u might say howcan i decide whether a film being worth of piracy or no piracy shouldbe a deciding factor. well, i agree with idio when he says some filmsare deserving of piracy.moving further, i strongly feel there has been a gradual but a positivemove towards developing an indian DVD industry, which we can see isflourishing now, thanks to the early DVD releases, the 'parallel-crossover' movement,a pro-buying and consumerist shopping-mall culture,house full weekend shows(generally costing higher than the price of aDVD), and the over all feel-good indian cosmo guy who would not mindbuying a hazaaron khwahishen aisi if he has heard a lot about it. Now,it might be a personal opinion but i am generally more inclined towardspaying the indian movie makers than their western counterparts. i mightcite many a reasons for it, i would be more than willing to buy aYahaan or a Maqbool, or a 1947 Earth, swades, even a yuva, which comeat a way more affordable price slab than say a fight club , which wudcost me 600 bucks to procure an 'original' dvd(why the hell should ipay the currency differential! i am not bothered about your stupidthird world economics, i am a film watcher, not the one to wallow inthe misery of dollar convertibility). moreover, i feel the makers of a fight club or a godfather would haveearned enough dough to feed their future 10 generations....again, nooffences, its a IMHO thought.coming to sanjay gupta, there is an interesting argument goin on atiland, rediff between him n raja sen. a rediff critic. apparaently rajahas a had a series of arguments with a quieter, more pacified(for sakeof sanctity) Gupta.check out these links to enjoy their controversial collisions:http://www.rediff.com/movies/2006/jan/20raja.htmhttp://iffi.rediffiland.com/iland/iffi.html i personally think raja sen is no exceptional critic(he thinks Paheliis the best looking indian film in years!!)but he has got his own nicefunny way of putting things.

Sport Films

Tushar says: i am not too fond of sports movies...but few that i like are....anygiven sunday, radio, friday night lights,for love of the game,bend itlike beckam, iqbal,lagaan,cinderella man(yes i actually liked it!), nwho can forget raging bull and the evergreen rocky series...amongst therecent ones, not sure, but I too have heard great laurels about TheGreatest Game Ever Played, it was supposed to come to india, but i dontknow if it will some in the current decade. cus they also said they llrelease MUNICH in february :-)veering off the discussion...have u seen the kind of english flicksthey release in here....zathura(!), big momma's house(!!), derailed(!),casanova(!), n host of other flicks which might have not got anytheatres in the US to show ...lol!

Arky says:Since the discussion was on Bill Paxton's Greatest Game Ever Played, ithought that it would be an apt time to convey my sense ofbeing "betrayed" on seeing the movie. And no, I'm not blaming themovie . Though it stands by every cliche in the underdog sportsmovierulebook, it's lifted by a genuine sense of emotion and heart whichprevails throughout and ever five minutes after the credits haverolled. Then why the hell- "betrayl". The reason is Paxton. Paxton the gloriously off-kilter actordelivering wonderfully off-kilter roles with devilish delight.. checkout the car salesman in "True Lies" and the curmudgeon general in theunder-rated "Last Supper", who had debuted a few years back with abrilliant and un-noticed movie- "Frailty". If Paxton had gonefrom "Game" to "Frailty" I'd have loved him but for the director ofFraility to come up with "Game".. bummer!! Frailty was everything Game is not. It was dark, disturbing,provocative and a true original. And it will forever be the benchmarkfor any Paxton movies I watch.

TARANTINO

Sid says: What kind of a film group is this? Someone puts in "Tarantino" and it slips away unnoticed. Didn't it inspire anything- a manic salivating, no swoons of cool, no giddy excitement that makes you fall back from your couch?? Which suddenly brings me to the quesation- am i living in an alternate reality geekworld where tarantino rules while in the real world he's dimissed of a a nerd who got his hands on a camera? Frankly my darling, I don't give a damn!!! Tarantino rocks!!! Mr. O- Cool. Tell me, who doesn't want to ride down on a chopper and say stuff like ," Zed's Dead baby. Zed's Dead.", who doesn't wanna samurai some crazy 88 ass whilst wearing Bruce Lee's legendary yellow and black, who doesn't wanna be "Mr. Wolf". Tarantino knows 'cool' and infuses every scene with it and looks like he's enjoying every goddamn second of it! here's someone who has fun with his moviesand it's infectious! If Reservoir and Pulp were landmarks of modern cinema then the Kill Bill series was a tribute to all that made Tarantino. And then there's also jackie Brown. Let's call that menopause. But what 'menopause'!! It's a surprisingly mature and well-made noir movie but hell, Tarantino we just want you to have fun!! Just shine on.... gloriously!! Eagerly awaiting "Grind House"

Tushar says:TARANTINO ROCKS! all right now I dont think I need to reiterate what Tarantino means to me after that self-confessed outburst. He rules inall the worlds that ever were. Jus saw Jackie Brown for the fifthtime on MGM few days back and reinvented few more interesting thingsin it...Can't wait for Grind House n Inglorious Bastards....

Bollywood: the current trend in western film schools

Arky says: While we talking about popular cinema, here is few> short notes from Philip Lutgendorf/ Corey.k.Creekmur> course "Popular Hindi Cinema" which is given at University of Iowa. Just by looking at the contents of this course(http://www.uiowa.edu/~incinema/Syllabus.htm)
we find
it has extensive coverage on popular bollywood cinema through the ages. Prof.Philip's notes on Indian popular cinema are interesting. (http://www.uiowa.edu/~incinema/index.html) He reviews film's from Raj Kapoor's Barsaat (1949) to present day Mani Ratnam's Yuva (2004). While you are going through the site, do visit some of his recommended films page too.

Tushar says:I am also reminded of a female professor at some university in UK whoteaches mainstream Indian cinema(she was in the cover story of TheHindu few months back- might be Nasreen Munni Kabir who has madefamous documentaries on Indian film personalities like Shah RukhKhan, but I am not sure), and has also written some books onBollywood. I can't remember her name or any link, but you shouldcheck out this link http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/blog.html, its thehome/blog page of Amardeep Singh, an assistant professor of Englishat Lehigh University. This guy is simply brilliant in his knowledgeof things ranging from literature to political ideology. Esp. checkout his reviews under "music/film etc. too cool. you could also read this:http://www.hindu.com/2004/03/17/stories/2004031704270300.htm
though it might be debatable whether hindimovies are better than their western counterparts, but they arenonetheless good cinema. some of my favorites would be ones by bimal roy(devdas, bandini, sujata, do bigha zameen..), guru datt(kaagaz kephool, pyaasa, chaudvin ka chand, saahab biwi aur ghulam), umrao jaan,pakeezah, ones by shyam benegal(junoon,kalyug, sooraj ka saatvan ghoda,making of the mahatma), and hordes of other so-called "parallel" cinemaof the post-80's like ankur, manthan, ardhsatya, drohkaal, aakrosh,tamas(TV), bharat ek khoj(TV), samar, mammo, hazaar chauraasi ki maaetc. its time we wake up to what the world recognised aeons ago..

Discussion: Favoritism of Multiplexes, What decides our consumption of western cinema

Tushar says: I appreciate and relish world cinema and make sure I never miss wherever it happens in town, but I am also an avid Mumbai cinema fan. And I feel that some movies, though brilliant, simply go unnoticed, just by coming under the Bollywood/commercial/mainstream umbrella. What amuses me all the more in a surprising way in which the town reacts to contemporary Hollywood in an all-appreciative tone(which might not always be all that worthy of attention-debatable) and simply scoffs at some of the good products we have but never see the light of the day. It makes me sad to see that movies like Black Friday, Bhopal Express, Paanch, n a million others never see the light of the day and their deserved moment of glory in multiplexes like PVR where people put enjoyment over the real credibility of a movie as a reason to see it(excuse me for generalizing). I have tried calling up these multiplex places to screen some good Indian and western movies which deserve a theatre watch than the omnipresent pirated DVDs we get almost in every street now. In fact sometimes the reasons they give me for not showing the same are hilarious. Few months back, we had a national digital film festival happening across the nation in almost 8 cities in which Bangalore didn't feature. Sad. With so many movie enthusiasts around, if we get deprived of good original cinema, it is really unfortunate on our part. I was just wondering if we could do something about it. By the way, I did happen to see Mixed Doubles and loved it and wouldcompletely agree with idio.

Sid says: Like some wise man put it ever so pithily.. It's all about money honey. And don't you ever make the mistake to think that multiplexes are out there to promote "niche' cinema. That's for the birds. Hell, if a Mithun B-grader would bring in the throngs they wouldn't hesitate one second from pulling out a lovingly crafted small 'multiplex' movie and replacing it with a monstrosity. If the multiplexes were really out for cinema's sake, how come I can't recollect a single foreign film (other than a horribly dubbed version of "Kung Fu Hustle") playing? Let's face it.. The multiplexes have been around for quite some time now. If they really cared for "good" and "different" cinema they'd have started doing something about it by now. Mumbai is slightly better though. Almost like dispensing grace, the multiplexes have surprised me once in a while by showing the great documentary "War and Peace" and a brilliant lil gem of a movie called "Manasarovar" by Anup Kurian starring Atul Kulkarni. And as for local cinema.. I’d blame the critics too.
What critics.. Some like bootlicking sycophants.And the Times of India is the biggest ass-wipe newspaper that ever existed. All that fucking jargon- technosexual, metrosexual...
.They are the one's who hand crappy movies like Zinda four whole stars. A shallow movie copied shamelessly and in the manner of a coward from a little Korean cult flick "Old BoY". And guess what Times had to say about it- nobody's seen the Korean flick.. so it doesn't make a difference. A newspaper justifying intellectual theft!!! Now, if tomorrow, i win a Super Lottery and put out a magazine called "Times of India".. i know they'd fucking sue me.
Other fuck ups-Taxi 9211- three and a half. Copied shameless from the slick,topical, urban thriller "Changing Lanes."
Rang De basanthi gets 4 while Hazaron Khwaishien gets 3 1/2.
Waisa Bhi Hota Hai Part 2... a lovely movie, wholly original andquirky, a pyaar se banaayi hui uber-cool black comedy of a movie.. 2stars.
Praan Jaaye par shaan na jaaye.. another very flawed yet crazy,different movie.. one and a half stars.
Sehar gets 3 while Sarkar gets 3 and a 1/2.and the master shameless stroke..
Salaam Namaste gets 3 and 1/2 andNeal and Nikki gets 3.
Fucking Sell-outs.Critics are supposed to promote good cinema andnot just Yash Chopra Productions. It’s rotten all through and through.

Tushar says: Right said fredAs you said, multiplexes are all sold out to the sole purpose of making money- whichever way they get it, they will go for it. But amidst this furor of recycled trash churned out frequently, we also see some good stuff, what I am saying here is that these underground movies do not necessarily and always mean good cinema, but they do deserve a decent play. Even I missed Mansarovar, American Dreams, Lets Talk, or for that matter, even HazaaronKhwaaishen Aisi, at the theatre i mean, which probably just came and went). What makes meconcerned(and frustrated but hopeful at the same time) all the more about our city is the way cities like Chennai have a good tuning between the class and mass inclinations. They do have their decent share of indie stuff along with the potboilers and money spinners. Satyam, Chennai hosted the Digital Film Festival few months back, and if I am correct even earned some handsome money from it. So if these people say, Show me the money!¨ they sure would not lose any if they go ahead and showcase/package/sell these films to an already existing target audience. I recall seeing a crappy movie called One Dollar Curry and the theatre being 70% occupied. It is all subjective, but then how many of these so called mainstream flicks attract a 100% occupancy inspite of some ridiculously incorrect rating by newspapers like TOI(which I have an entire list of examples to prove how ridiculous can ridiculous get). And by the way, Mixed Doubles is taken off today¡

Tushar says:hmmm..i don't know about last five decades...but i have seen loads of hollywood flops/hits doing wonders in india irrespective of their US feat. I am not complaining against any kind of collective response to a film but I do not understand the reason for this wow-culture. we goto watch the "biggie" with the presupposition that it would be great, its similar to seeing a great painting, though it might not make sense to you, you still applause it for the fear of derision/ridicule being an 'outsider'. i accept doing that myself with few films i saw long back, but now I realize they were not worth all the applause. recently i saw the same trend with Crash. it almost becomes compulsive to embrace it just like an expensive dish served on the platter. what disturbs me all the more is the lack of any reason or justification for it being "great". its almost like goin to hum aapke hain kaun with our parents when we were small, and liking it just cus there was no other available option! few english that fall in this category would be the "disaster/save- the-world" movies of late nineties, does it ring a bell?! ...still waitin to see jarhead, good night and good luck, munich, matador,broken flowers, coach carter in theatres...

Malvika says"like i said earlier, Indians believe anything foreign has got to be good, regardless. it does not pertain only to movies take food items to we tend to believe the quality of all foreign foods is good, there is no doubt about that in our minds but when it comes to indian brands we tend to think twice before purchasing it. This holds good for clothes appliances and many more. its Indian mentality. It's what we are thought and believe it blindly without questioning why or who put this image in our minds."

Girish says:I don't know about food etc. but in case of cinema, you may have to re-write your argument with using the word 'American' instead of Foreign. If you are wondering who put this idea on our mind, you have only yourself to blame. We all have an obsession towards America that reflects in this group also. i was reading the list of films posted up by few of us in this group as the best films made in 2005-2006. All of them are American films, even though there are some amazing films are made in our neighboring countries, like Taiwan, Korea, Hong kong, Vietnam, Indonesia, Iran etc. Before we worry about why the public go behind the hype, we should see how far we gone on experimenting with our appreciation of films/cultures other than American/ English.

Tushar says:I accept that we have veered the discussion to an "American" viewpoint. Actually the whole thing started off when the question of "How much Hollywood do we Indians consume"(commercially, as in theatrical releases) arose. And as it happens, we had all kinds of viewpoints that came up. I am completely in sync with you when you say that our opinions are US-centric, but personally, I happily accept that I am a consumer of the American culture and look up to the products that are churned from them, be it arts or science. This is no way means, that I hold these products the most-worthy of attention, but this is just a personal preference.I know that it would be foolish to talk for our(or in fact, any) society at large, but we have been programmed to "consume" Hollywood on a regular basis, it started with the advent of Satellite television and has continued ever since. However, it is a pity that amidst this blind worship, we tend to lose on many a brilliant films (and other forms of art) by other parts of the world. Some of film societies like us or people in big cities do get their dose of world cinema but what about the rest of the country? For them, it’s the Spiderman's and the Godzilla's. Infact, we as a collective group of film-fanatics (if I may use the term) can make a dent in this blind faith. Whenever I hear about any film that I feel is worthy of attention, I would be the first one to tell you all about it, be it from the US or any other country. Furthermore, I would like to reiterate that in our discussion we had been talking about the commercial consumption of non-indian cinema, which fortuantely or unfortunately, is largely american. hope I do not spark off any argument, and that you take my views in a a amiable color.

Arky says:Well, every generation has common associations to certain words. Perhaps today when we say foreign it may be US-centered but our grandfathers’ generations it would have been Europe and England. I wouldn't like to comment on this topic because am not a student ofetymology, anyway its too ambiguous.

Sid says:I'm not talking consumer goods, electronics or clothes here. I'll just keep it to 'cinema'. I think the postings are mixing 'good/bad' with 'curiosity'. I think that there is more 'curiosity' and interest in a foreign film than an Indian film. 'Good' and 'bad' are very subjective. And also, where there is art there are phonies. Flies to a ladoo, rule ay life. and if the 'best of' lists on the BFS posting featured American movies, i think it's solely because of the reason that they're easily available at your friendly neighborhood DVD-wallah or play at your grotesquely over-priced neighborhood multiplex. No one can argue that there have been fantastic and superior films being made in Korea and Taiwan over the past few years but the catch being:- How the fuck do i get to see them?

Girish says:See, guys i am not in arguments for arguments sake, that is the reason why i don't write vey often on these groups. for example now the discussion happening in Collective Chaos group is insane, from past one month they are discussing one single topic, and the discussion didn't move an inch, only outcome is that people throwing mud at each other....... i am not interested that. i genuinely hope something nice will come out of all this talk. Over all i agree with Tushar on his views, and I respect his personal choice being a pro-American culture. Sure no arguments on that. But i would like to discuss two points come out or response to my mail, which i find worth few interactions.

1. idiosyncratic_fallout said: "No one can argue that there have been fantastic and superior flms being made in Korea and Taiwan over the past few years but the catch being:- How the fuck do i get to see them?" I think the search for a better cinema is the whole point. In my case I have started off with watching Hollywood like a mad man, but after a point i asked myself so what is next? is this the only way... and slowly started reading up a lot. Then it was a rather long journey through many cultures continents countries, individuals, ideologies so on. But all I can say is it is a rewarding trip and i consider that as the best part of my life even today. The channels where all kinds: books, Internet, film festivals, film societies, talks, VHS to DVD libraries, begging from private collectors, friends abroad, pirated market so on. The time, energy and money i spend on them has given me (and still giving me) a new world view and an aesthetic joy which is priceless. So I don't think a question of un availability of great cinema, it is a question of your interest and commitment towards yourself to explore the world / art on your own. And not expecting everything to be given to you in a platter. Believe me the day you say to yourself "what is shown to me is not satisfying the individual in me and i wish to move on in my search;" hundred of new films and people will be available to you. (Habitat in church street has one of the best collections i have seen in any dvd library... what he calls limelight collection.) Ok this i said is on a personal individual level, now if the question is about the availablity to every one, that is where the films societies and discussion groups like our's play its role. That leads to my second point:-

Arky said: As an active promoter of open discussions I often initiate and try to balancediscussion on both classics and common commercial cinema. Don't you think we should have healthy mix of both ? What sort of a balance are you taking about Arky? In a world where commercial interest has take over every possible channels to public space, and media has partnered them to tell the people that this is the only kind of film experience.....your kind of groups are the balance. You are without doubt on the other side, to balance this madness. In its own small way BFS, Collective Chaos, Suchitra are the people who should work as an over all balance to this highly commercialised times. Now asking for a politically correct balance within this side will defet the whole purpose. As i said before this stand is not with any hate to the "common commercial cinema" you referring to, but all i am saying is they have enough and more venues to reach the public and the power to keep people in control. We don't have to party to that with a group like our's (even though we love some of those films). I think the role of BFS or any similar group is to show the other side of MONEY. And talk about the other kinds of film experiences than "easily available"